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Control Yoke Collars

Re: Control Yoke Collars

jrichards said:
Hi All,

Today an owner reported installing a new collar and finding no difference between the new and old.

Allow me clarify:

The controls geometry requires the collar to move as the yoke shaft slides in and out, and safety margins must be maintained on collar ID to prevent drag in the controls. Thus, there are no dimensional changes from the old to the new, only a change of material to make the parts more "slippery". The usual complaints about old collars are that either (a) they are dragging, or (b) they have cracked.

Thanks,
Jim
Click to expand...
Hi all.

Owner = Me :)

I was hoping to rid my controls of the slop but I suppose all Commanders do this. Of the few planes I have flown, none had this issue of slop so I assumed it to be worn collars. Not so lol.

So...lesson learned.

I have my pair of collars/paperwork if someone needs a set. I have no use for the set from Jim.

Thanks Jim for the clarification.
 
Re: Control Yoke Collars

jukelemon said:
Hi all.

Owner = Me :)

I was hoping to rid my controls of the slop but I suppose all Commanders do this. Of the few planes I have flown, none had this issue of slop so I assumed it to be worn collars. Not so lol.

So...lesson learned.

I have my pair of collars/paperwork if someone needs a set. I have no use for the set from Jim.

Thanks Jim for the clarification.
Click to expand...

Please describe the "slop" in detail. I do not have slop that I can think of. Do others? Makes me wonder if something else is wrong with your controls. I have Jim's new collars and will install them regardless as part of the continual upgrade of the 40-year-old bird whenever I find an opportunity.
 
Re: Control Yoke Collars

jukelemon said:
Hi all.

Owner = Me :)

I was hoping to rid my controls of the slop but I suppose all Commanders do this. Of the few planes I have flown, none had this issue of slop so I assumed it to be worn collars. Not so lol.

So...lesson learned.

I have my pair of collars/paperwork if someone needs a set. I have no use for the set from Jim.

Thanks Jim for the clarification.
Click to expand...


You may want to hang onto those. In case one of yours breaks next time out. Just sayin
 
Re: Control Yoke Collars

N4843W said:
Please describe the "slop" in detail. I do not have slop that I can think of. Do others? Makes me wonder if something else is wrong with your controls. I have Jim's new collars and will install them regardless as part of the continual upgrade of the 40-year-old bird whenever I find an opportunity.
Click to expand...
Hi.

Both sides are identical.

If I push the elevator all the way in, there is a good 1/8" up/down and side/side slop/play in the control shaft/collar to whatever the panel mount is (not sure of the proper name).

It has nothing to do with anything other than the ID to OD tolerances (or lack thereof) in that mount.

It is just surprising really. I can see why it is like that a little given the geometry change in the control shaft but I would have thought it would have been much less.

But maybe not.

I seriously doubt it is abnormal given that the prior owner did not notice it, the PPI did not state anything etc etc.
 
Re: Control Yoke Collars

Just spoke to my A&P. He said it is "normal," just part of the design. I guess I have flown it so long (16 years this month) that I don't notice anymore. He said on some planes like 310's they have roller bearings but tell you to adjust it so that it has 1/8" play. He added to only lubricate with silicon or graphite, never oil.
 
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Re: Control Yoke Collars

N4843W said:
Just spoke to my A&P. He said it is "normal," just part of the design. I guess I have flown it so long (16 years this month) that I don't notice any more. He said on some planes like 310's they have roller bearings but tell you to adjust it so that it has 1/8" play. He added to only oil with silicon or graphite, never oil.
Click to expand...
Cool. Thanks for checking.

Just another bad assumption on my part leading to a part I didnt need lol.

Nevertheless...it is paid learning which is priceless and I supported a Commander vendor :)
 
Re: Control Yoke Collars

I have a lot of "slop". I guess I need to put a dial indicator on it to accurately measure, but I can wobble the shaft at least a quarter inch or more.

I always thought that was a lot but both side do it. I can also take the collar and push it in the housing and very nearly eliminate any up or down movement.
 
Re: Control Yoke Collars

hljr said:
I can also take the collar and push it in the housing and very nearly eliminate any up or down movement.
Click to expand...

Your serial number may have had a different type of plastic bushing. The earlier airplanes used a two-piece bushing consisting of a plastic o-ring that snapped onto a cylindrical sleeve.

If you now have the single-piece bushing, you might be able to put a spacer behind the retaining ring such that it moves the whole thing further back into the collar. However, you need to make sure that in that position it has some slop and can swivel as the control wheel is moved fore-aft (because it doesn't travel in a straight line).
 
Re: Control Yoke Collars

After I get the new collars, I'll disassemble it and see what is in there.
 
Re: Control Yoke Collars

Hi Jason and All,

By design, the collar outside diameter is 10 thousandths smaller than the mount (socket) inside diameter. This allows the collar to freely "tilt" with the variable shaft angle.

By design, the collar inside diameter is 10 thousandths larger than the shaft diameter. This prevents drag /catching in all heat/cold/humidity conditions.

Combining these freedom allowances, we have an expected up/down left/right freedom of .02" at the socket. If you have 1/8" , or anything near that, something else is wrong.

Jim
 
Re: Control Yoke Collars

jrichards said:
Hi Jason and All,

By design, the collar outside diameter is 10 thousandths smaller than the mount (socket) inside diameter. This allows the collar to freely "tilt" with the variable shaft angle.

By design, the collar inside diameter is 10 thousandths larger than the shaft diameter. This prevents drag /catching in all heat/cold/humidity conditions.

Combining these freedom allowances, we have an expected up/down left/right freedom of .02" at the socket. If you have 1/8" , or anything near that, something else is wrong.

Jim
Click to expand...
Hi Jim.

Thanks. The above makes much more sense to me i.e. how it should be.

What else could be wrong?? There are only a few variables in this...right?

You have 1-the collar (which is new) 2-the OD of the shaft to the ID of the collar (which is fine) and 3-the OD of the collar to the ID of the panel mount (you called it a socket I think).

My issues...I think or thought...was 3. I am WAY away from a .02 tolerance up/down or side/side when elevator is pushed all the way in or in neutral position for that matter.

Can we post videos here? It would be much easier for me to show you/everyone that way.
 
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Re: Control Yoke Collars

Maybe I've got Piper parts in mine.

It's been a while since I looked at the parts manual, but I only remember the housing, a collar and a snap ring. If that's correct, something really wore out.
 
Re: Control Yoke Collars

Please see here:

https://youtu.be/bGLyGPFpYxo

That is normal?

That is AFTER Jim's new collar and pretty much the same as the original one. As well, both sides are identical in slop/play.
 
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Re: Control Yoke Collars

Hi Jason,

I see your sprockets dancing around as you wiggle the shaft up/down and left/right. The sprockets should not be moving by any appreciable amount except in rotation and push/pull. I would suggest a condition check on the bushings at the base of the column.

Also, I see possible excessive motion at the u-joints that needs closer examination.

Jim
 
Re: Control Yoke Collars

jrichards said:
Hi Jason,

I see your sprockets dancing around as you wiggle the shaft up/down and left/right. The sprockets should not be moving by any appreciable amount except in rotation and push/pull. I would suggest a condition check on the bushings at the base of the column.

Also, I see possible excessive motion at the u-joints that needs closer examination.

Jim
Click to expand...
Thanks Jim.

But what about the play in the collar to mount?
 
Re: Control Yoke Collars

Hi Jason,

With the extra motion, at the sprockets etc, it's hard to isolate what's happening at the collar/mount but it does seem looser than expected. Is there any mention in your logs of repair/replacement of any parts related to the controls/parts in this area?

The inside diameter of the mount (socket) is expected to be 1.9".

Jim
 
Re: Control Yoke Collars

jrichards said:
Hi Jason,

With the extra motion, at the sprockets etc, it's hard to isolate what's happening at the collar/mount but it does seem looser than expected. Is there any mention in your logs of repair/replacement of any parts related to the controls/parts in this area?

The inside diameter of the mount (socket) is expected to be 1.9".

Jim
Click to expand...
Hi Jim.

I think the sprocket motion you are seeing is somewhat of an illusion i.e. I cannot feel/detect any slop on the sprocket. All the slop is occurring between the socket ID to collar OD in my opinion.

No on the log book question. I see no mention of anything controls related...but I will look again. Maybe I missed it. The books are very detailed.

This slop cannot be new i.e. I would imagine this was the condition for many moons which led me to believe it was normal. Again, the PPI nor my safety pilot coming home made mention of it.
 
Re: Control Yoke Collars

N4843W said:
Just spoke to my A&P. He said it is "normal," just part of the design. I guess I have flown it so long (16 years this month) that I don't notice anymore. He said on some planes like 310's they have roller bearings but tell you to adjust it so that it has 1/8" play. He added to only lubricate with silicon or graphite, never oil.
Click to expand...

Trust me... never "silicon". ;-) Perhaps "Silicone". Graphite or molybdenum disulfide will work but both are messy and can leave a dark residue. Silicone or WD40 (only approved aviation use BTW) will be best, easiest to apply (shop towel) and cleanest.
 
Re: Control Yoke Collars

There has to be some clearance between the shaft, shaft collar and the flange or else there is a risk of binding between all 3 parts Your u-joint does look loose though. Jim sells u-joints. Sprockets look fine.
 
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