What are you listening to?

[FS]

Re: What are you listening to?

I was referring to those who cavalierly fly in airspace with other planes around without using flight following!

A) Should we put up a poll to see how many of your fellow Commander owners fly VFR without flight following and are therefore subject to your current tirade? Never mind me, but you might be surprised to find people you actually respect on that list.

B) ATC provides flight following on a work-permitting basis. What happens if you're flying along VFR with ATC, and they hand you off to a controller that says "unable flight following at this time"? Do you land and wait until ATC isn't as busy? If so, then how do you get yourself safely to an airport if you've lost your flight following?

Don't say you file IFR at that point, because then you have to wonder what happens to the non-IFR-rated pilots.

This is not a theoretical question, as it really has happened to me going from Delaware to NY and the Philly Class B turned me down even though I was remaining outside the Class B. Of course, I didn't land. I just continued until I got past Philly and picked up NY ATC. Who, it turns out, was also wondering why Philly dropped me. And that ain't no exaggeration. NY ATC really was asking what happened because Delaware had put in a strip for me in for the whole trip home.

 

[janderson]

Re: What are you listening to?

Bob Seger "Against the wind".

Judi

 

[nruzic]

Re: What are you listening to?

Jazz - Coltrane, BB King, Sanborne...

&

Classical - almost any of the romantic period composers or moderns like Prokofief and Aron Copeland

Especially love the music while skimming along above a layer - the world of flight becomes so beautiful and we can only marvel at this added delight dimension we can experience that our ground bound brethren call only dream of.

Yes Glenn as you say safely with an auto muting PS Engineering Audio Panel.

I do use Flight Following and have a TCAD (much lower cost than TCAS) and plan to go ADS-B for Wx and Traffic. I've had the same experience of near silent flight following on VA - MI or IN flights.

Once you're out of Potomcac Control (Washington Center) after the 1st Appalacian ridge line and handed off to Clarksburg Approach in the hills of WV (but I never select John Denver's Country Roads) its quiet till Ohio.

PS Scott occasionally I do listen to Boleros if you get my drift.

 

[wab003]

Jazz - Coltrane, BB King, Sanborne...

&

Classical - almost any of the romantic period composers or moderns like Prokofief and Aron Copeland

Especially love the music while skimming along above a layer - the world of flight becomes so beautiful and we can only marvel at this added delight dimension we can experience that our ground bound brethren call only dream of.

Yes Glenn as you say safely with an auto muting PS Engineering Audio Panel.

I do use Flight Following and have a TCAD (much lower cost than TCAS) and plan to go ADS-B for Wx and Traffic. I've had the same experience of near silent flight following on VA - MI or IN flights.

Once you're out of Potomcac Control (Washington Center) after the 1st Appalacian ridge line and handed off to Clarksburg Approach in the hills of WV (but I never select John Denver's Country Roads) its quiet till Ohio.

PS Scott occasionally I do listen to Boleros if you get my drift.

So who finishes first? Siddiqi or Ravel?

 

[rob egph]

Re: What are you listening to?

Hi Ian,
The Battlefield Band. I just introduced a couple of my Danish colleagues to them! Helped one of them locate and find a second hand set of bagpipes (and no he hadnt discussed it with his wife) What a blast - the five minute warning! Have you tried the Proclaimers 'Sunshine on Leith'? If not I'll bring you a copy to the flyin in September. Methil no more...
Rob

 

[idcairns]

Re: What are you listening to?

Rob,

Can't say I have heard of that. Look forward to seeing you again.

 

[davloose]

Re: What are you listening to?

Love Rhapsody, listening to their Top Tracks now! (Not while flying, but I could!)

 

[bboretsky]

Re: What are you listening to?

Leonard Cohen (anything) and Pink Floyd's Learning to Fly

 

[usmcs6]

Re: What are you listening to?

XM.Water colors Jazz. But not until 15 min after launch and 20 min till landing..

 

[N4843W]

Re: What are you listening to?

Do I really have to answer these questions Frank? OK, below.

A) Should we put up a poll to see how many of your fellow Commander owners fly VFR without flight following and are therefore subject to your current tirade? Never mind me, but you might be surprised to find people you actually respect on that list.SS:
SS: No doubt and so what?. I can respect folks on some issues, and not on others. Ask me both Obama and Romney. Just because some people that I like or respect do it, does not mean I should condone it. My second son smokes. I respect almost everything about him -- except that. Does not mean I love him any less.

B) ATC provides flight following on a work-permitting basis.
SS: Same as it ever was, and they do provide it 95% of the time or more (that is from FAAST, not me.)

What happens if you're flying along VFR with ATC, and they hand you off to a controller that says "unable flight following at this time"? Do you land and wait until ATC isn't as busy? If so, then how do you get yourself safely to an airport if you've lost your flight following?

SS: nonsense question and moot point. You fly and put yourself on quadruple alert and religiously stick to appropriate altitudes for VFR. If you are flying over central Nebraska, you can relax (mostly.) I fly 200+ hours a hear n many very, very busy airspaces. Get dropped about about once a month on average. So what ... because you have never been killed in a car wreck do you quit wearing your seat belt? You use everything you have whenever you have it to ensure safety of yourself and others. When you can't get it, you do the very best you can. That is called risk management and basic responsibility to your fellow pilots.

Don't say you file IFR at that point, because then you have to wonder what happens to the non-IFR-rated pilots.

SS: Huh? If a guy was too busy to take me for VFR advisories and you asked for IFR, he's say "Call flight service." And if I was in an intense airspace with a controller who would not take me, calling FSS would not be the safest option.

This is not a theoretical question, as it really has happened to me going from Delaware to NY and the Philly Class B turned me down even though I was remaining outside the Class B. Of course, I didn't land. I just continued until I got past Philly and picked up NY ATC. Who, it turns out, was also wondering why Philly dropped me. And that ain't no exaggeration. NY ATC really was asking what happened because Delaware had put in a strip for me in for the whole trip home.

SS: It happens all the time. Chicago approach does this frequently. Ran into it at Dallas and Houston in the past couple of months. But around Class B's in particular I file IFR the great majority of the time which eliminates a lot of the issue. When I am VFR and Chicago won't take handoff from South Bend, I wait 5 minutes and try to get it myself. Works about 3 out of 4 times. If I don't I go on extra-high alert.

SS:If anyone says what I am calling for is some kind of big government nanny system, that is just BS. I am saying though, when you are in environments where conflict with other planes is an issue, it is irresponsible not to use whatever tools you can conjur. Having been saved from cavalier, non-caring "I fly and I own the sky" pilots twice, once by my daughter and once by that Tampa Controller, it is personal. Both could have been totally avoided,one with Flight following (Tampa was accepting Fight following from anyone) and once simply by using the radio at a country airport that did not require one legally ... oh yeah, not flying the pattern backward would have helped.

bottom line ... just because flight following is at times not available, that is not an excuse for not using it whenever possible in areas where it could make a difference between life and death. Is there really an argument about this?

 

[plight]

Re: What are you listening to?

Sting.

 

[nruzic]

Re: What are you listening to?

So who finishes first? Siddiqi or Ravel?

LOL Bill B very slick - slip in the epee there with an economy of words.

 

[FS]

Re: What are you listening to?

Do I really have to answer these questions Frank?

No. You have the right to remain silent, but anything you choose to say can be used against you.

For example, here's what you said earlier ...

Use the damn system whenever other planes could be around [emphasis yours]. Or don't fly. Period.

I'm not seeing any wiggle room in that statement. Pretty much, if you can't get VFR flight following then land the airplane. It makes no exception about cases where flight following -- for whatever reason -- is not available. Really, "whenever other planes could be around", is all the time, any time, regardless of how busy ATC happens to be that day.

Furthermore, for some group of people that you might ostensibly call your friends, your actual perception of those in that group who also do not use flight following on their VFR flights is that they are demonstrating arrogance, and/or have a cavalier attitude about their responsibilities as pilots, and/or have a "I fly and own the sky" mentality, and/or are non-caring pilots. Those are the things that can be directly quoted from your comments, so it's not like I'm putting words in your mouth. And those are not things that, in my opinion, would be seen as respectable perceptions of your "friends".

When I am VFR and Chicago won't take handoff from South Bend, I wait 5 minutes and try to get it myself. Works about 3 out of 4 times. If I don't I go on extra-high alert.

Interesting. So why is it that -- in your apparent opinion -- pilots that choose not to request flight following are incapable of handling their responsibilities and demonstrate all those other negative traits you've attributed to them, but when you find yourself without flight following in very busy Chicago airspace (busy enough that they can't provide flight following services) it's not beyond your own abilities? Why do you (apparently) believe that all those other pilots are incapable of being just as vigilant all the time as you are when Chicago turns you down? Are you somehow better at "seeing and avoiding" in congested airspace than other VFR pilots?

In your case it's no longer about risk management but risk aversion. You had two close calls, and now every pilot that's not using flight following has become irresponsible in your eyes.

And I haven't even addressed the case of a certain someone leading a group of pilots (on two different occassions) around the Great Lakes a number of years back, presumably without flight following. Again, was that person better at it than the average VFR pilot?

You fly and put yourself on quadruple alert and religiously stick to appropriate altitudes for VFR. If you are flying over central Nebraska, you can relax (mostly.)

My example was about a case where ATC denied flight following services. If "you can relax (mostly)" after being denied flight following over central Nebraska, then why can't you be just as relaxed without requesting the service at all?

 

[nruzic]

Re: What are you listening to?

Perhaps Scott is safe when ATC is too busy for Flight Following because he's flying a Glow Green plane that must be visible even at twilight near Chicago's airspace ADD that to the galre off his panel and the Green Machine is visible for miles!


OK goys too much opportunity here in the the passions of personalities and opinions but we like you both so Sorry couldn't resist

PS Oh and I wonder if the cockpit listening here is of the old radio show The Bickesons or perhpas more modern The Wailers?

See I said we like you both!

 

[rotarur]

No. You have the right to remain silent, but anything you choose to say can be used against you.

For example, here's what you said earlier ...



I'm not seeing any wiggle room in that statement. Pretty much, if you can't get VFR flight following then land the airplane. It makes no exception about cases where flight following -- for whatever reason -- is not available. Really, "whenever other planes could be around", is all the time, any time, regardless of how busy ATC happens to be that day.

Furthermore, for some group of people that you might ostensibly call your friends, your actual perception of those in that group who also do not use flight following on their VFR flights is that they are demonstrating arrogance, and/or have a cavalier attitude about their responsibilities as pilots, and/or have a "I fly and own the sky" mentality, and/or are non-caring pilots. Those are the things that can be directly quoted from your comments, so it's not like I'm putting words in your mouth. And those are not things that, in my opinion, would be seen as respectable perceptions of your "friends".



Interesting. So why is it that -- in your apparent opinion -- pilots that choose not to request flight following are incapable of handling their responsibilities and demonstrate all those other negative traits you've attributed to them, but when you find yourself without flight following in very busy Chicago airspace (busy enough that they can't provide flight following services) it's not beyond your own abilities? Why do you (apparently) believe that all those other pilots are incapable of being just as vigilant all the time as you are when Chicago turns you down? Are you somehow better at "seeing and avoiding" in congested airspace than other VFR pilots?

In your case it's no longer about risk management but risk aversion. You had two close calls, and now every pilot that's not using flight following has become irresponsible in your eyes.

And I haven't even addressed the case of a certain someone leading a group of pilots (on two different occassions) around the Great Lakes a number of years back, presumably without flight following. Again, was that person better at it than the average VFR pilot?



My example was about a case where ATC denied flight following services. If "you can relax (mostly)" after being denied flight following over central Nebraska, then why can't you be just as relaxed without requesting the service at all?

So, I am with Frank on this one, VFR is all about see and avoid and has been ever since more then two airplanes took up to the sky and not having to use the radio during a VFR flight is completely legal, so for each their own, why the debate? I live on an uncontrolled field with a bunch of 1940's era Cubs and Stearmans, that don't even have a handheld radio and they roam the pattern constantly. Would that stop me from flying, hell no, I just put my head on a swivel when I know there is potentially nordo traffic around me and so they once teach me when I started flying.

The chiefly, arrogant (sic!) rant about having to use ATC all the time and yelling in the forums (watch your CAPS) is just too much by the way. I also clearly remember one of the Great Lakes flight of 5 (no, it was 6, hmmm maybe 8?), big debacle, not for me ever again.

 

[N4843W]

Re: What are you listening to?

Whatever, gentlemen. I think 98% of the people here understand exactly what I am saying despite efforts to twist it around. I am happy for you that you have never had near-death experiences caused by people who with some very simple effort could have totally avoided it. I have been through it twice, and that's quite enough. So enough said on this topic. Sorry I brought it up. Radu, as webmaster, why don't you just delete all the comments. Does not fit here anyway. My bad for bringing it up. Discussing safety has never been well-received on this board.

 

[gmores]

Re: What are you listening to?

The comments and discussion are fine Scott. Always good food for thought. My only observation is that pilots will always have different perceptions of 'safe' in every phase of flight. It even affects how we equip our planes.

I'll leave it this way - everyone fly as safely as possible whatever the situation.

 

[JBunn]

Re: What are you listening to?

whenever I start feelin anxious during a flight I just reach in back for a cold one.... then I feel much more relaxed

 

[PuttingDoctor]

Re: What are you listening to?

Sirius XM Radio Margarittaville... Oh and I'm wearing out the iPad with Zack Brown "You Get What You Give"

 

[Airotto370]

Re: What are you listening to?

whenever I start feelin anxious during a flight I just reach in back for a cold one.... then I feel much more relaxed

Certainly more relaxing than that sh!t kickin' music you kept playing in Alaska!