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The need for speed . . .

Americana_D

Americana_D

New member
Supporting Member
Ocala, FL
Aircraft Year
1976
Aircraft Type
114
Reg Number
N4796W
Flew my 114 back from N GA today and benefited from a massive tailwind. My 145kts true translated into a 185kt ground speed! A Commander that could cruise as fast as a Bonanza or SR22 would be perfection.
 
Re: The need for speed . . .

Americana_D said:
Flew my 114 back from N GA today and benefited from a massive tailwind. My 145kts true translated into a 185kt ground speed! A Commander that could cruise as fast as a Bonanza or SR22 would be perfection.
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Mine's actually as fast if not faster than "ANY" SR22 out there or "ANY" BO out there at "ANY" Altitude and I'll put it against any of them......I have flown many many many BO's and I have flown many many many SR22's and I have to say my new (New to me) 114TC is as fast as any of the Bo's or Cirrus that I have personally flown myself. You know what they say "THE NUMBERS DON'T LIE"

TODD
 
Re: The need for speed . . .

That's awesome Todd! What TAS are you seeing in cruise? What's your fuel burn, altitude, etc. From what I've read, normally aspirated Bonanzas and SR22s can get 170+ ROP and 160 LOP.
 
Re: The need for speed . . .

In my Hot Shot 114 at apporx. 9K at 68 to 70% pwr I get TAS 147 to 153KTS. Ground speed wind dependant. At 11.5 I can get at 68 to 70% about 153 to 157 TAS. Have only been higher once, so far, 15.5K at 66% pwr 157 KTS TAS. Most of flying is between 8.5 to 12.5, in the Phoenix area and back and forth to Cortez, CO. I run with power below 70%.
 
Re: The need for speed . . .

Pete, your numbers are about what I would have imagined. Are you burning about 15GPH at those power/altitude profiles?
 
Re: The need for speed . . .

Americana_D said:
That's awesome Todd! What TAS are you seeing in cruise? What's your fuel burn, altitude, etc. From what I've read, normally aspirated Bonanzas and SR22s can get 170+ ROP and 160 LOP.
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David, I've now flown it about 18 hours since buying it and at 10K to 13K ft I'm running 29" and 23 rpm and about 1620-1640 TIT (rich of peak) so far consistently getting 170+ at 15.5 to 16.2 gal/hr.

I need to take it up to Aerodyme and get the STC Stab Incidence (Offset & Twist) adjusted as I'm seeing over an inch or so difference in mine at cruise setting with my wife and I on board, in fact my right side is almost twice what the left side is. It was a little bumpy yesterday on the way back from KECP for me to try to turn around in my seat and take some pics but as soon as I get an opportunity I'm going to snap some pics of the stab incidence in cruise/level flight set-up and send to them to Aerodyme so I can get his input but needless to say mine is about as bad as any of the other pics I've seen out there. If what they say is true then I would think I could easily pick up another 5 knts or so once it gets the infamous "offset & Twist" out of it. (Mine has both the offset and the twist)

I didn't mean to sound a little abrasive in my original response but over 24 years of flying alot of different birds I just don't see that a Bo or Cirrus is really any faster than our plane; now given ours is the TC so I guess all in all it wouldn't be a true apples to apples comparison to a NA Bo or Cirrus, but it does make me feel good to compare the 3 :D if you know what I mean.

And they definitely can't beat the comfort of the Commander over the other two along with the speeds and many other attributes of the Commanders. Hopefully they'll get the new factory open for all our benefits.:)
 
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Re: The need for speed . . .

Dave we had a similar experience yesterday on a trip back from Kansas City to central Illinois. TAS was 142 and ground speed was 182 at 6K & 23/23. I would never again sacrifice the comfort of our 114 for the F33 or A36. We are waiting for the new cowls that will probably give us another 10 knots. Value for money, you can't beat a Commander.
 
Re: The need for speed . . .

Todd, you have been very lucky with that one, if I were you I would not change anything. My 115TC can only do about 158 ktas @ FL100 with 2300/29 and 16GPH. My previous plane, a Bonanza A36 would easily do 175 ktas @ FL070 so I experience some difference. Not that it matters because I love flying the Commander and wife cannot complain about the additional flight time ;-)
 
Re: The need for speed . . .

fia said:
Todd, you have been very lucky with that one, if I were you I would not change anything. My 115TC can only do about 158 ktas @ FL100 with 2300/29 and 16GPH. My previous plane, a Bonanza A36 would easily do 175 ktas @ FL070 so I experience some difference. Not that it matters because I love flying the Commander and wife cannot complain about the additional flight time ;-)
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Finn I am totally with you on the "WIFE" thing, I'm TRULY very very BLESSED that I can't keep my wife out of the airplane, I love to fly but wow she wants to constantly go somewhere in the plane:D:) which is GREAT for me. SHE LOVES TO FLY.

Sending you a PM
 
Re: The need for speed . . .

Dave Hill, I'm burning between 14.5 and 15.0. RPM around 2400 to 2450.
 
Re: The need for speed . . .

Todd, you might want to take a look at your elevator rigging and travel. Normally, both sides should be fairly close to the same.

N295TC said:
I need to take it up to Aerodyme and get the STC Stab Incidence (Offset & Twist) adjusted as I'm seeing over an inch or so difference in mine at cruise setting with my wife and I on board, in fact my right side is almost twice what the left side is.
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Re: The need for speed . . .

Planecents said:
Todd, you might want to take a look at your elevator rigging and travel. Normally, both sides should be fairly close to the same.
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Craig I'm going out today to meet my A&P and see if there's any adjustment he can do to get them more in-line with one-another.

Thanks
 
Re: The need for speed . . .

Todd, do you have the Insight engine monitor that the factory put in those planes by default, or do you have something else?

Reason for asking is, be careful with those cylinder temps.

Mine is different from yours in that the previous owner of my airplane put GAMI injectors in, I'm guessing in an attempt to get LOP. It can do so, but just, and not reliably in the summer when it's hot outside.

On the other end (ROP) at 29/2300, the factory fuel flow recommendations for my TC are all wrong. If you fly my airplane by the factory's suggestions from the POH, you will burn up two cylinders on a regular basis. That was also borne out in the logs of my airplane from the previous owner. He had to replace two cylinders within 200 hours of buying the airplane and his mechanic told me that he had to sit him down and explain all of this, since the previous owner lived in the desert north of LA surrounded by mountains and had to climb through 13k to get anywhere. Full power climbs are what got him in the shop more than he wanted to be.

In short, it's not just the TIT, it's the last two cylinders as well (5 and 6 are the problem children of the bunch, particularly 5 on mine). Make sure those are not running too hot.

Optimally, of course, you cruise with them all below 400 degrees. Sometimes in the climb the last two will be north of 400 (particularly where we live in the hot/humid southern US in the summer) and there's just nothing that can be done about it until you level off in cruise. If heat is a problem, a good trick others have posted is to pull the breaker on the cowl flap half-way through its retraction, so that you get a bit of effect from it without all of the speed penalty.

I have JPI-930 data from mine if you'd like to take a look. If you have a different engine monitor that records data and also have the factory injectors rater than the GAMIs, it would be interesting to compare our engine data.
 
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Re: The need for speed . . .

Neal I'd really like to talk to you more about this since this plane is new to me and because it has a brand new MOH, I could definitley benefit from all of you guys on how to operate my new engine for a longer life.
I have the original Insight GEM 603 but hopefully before to much longer I'd like to install the JPI 930. I need to get you to educate me more on the operations of these engines and Turbo etc.
Thanks to everyone for their help,
 
Re: The need for speed . . .

There are some tricks that can be done to keep the cylinders cooler on the 114TC series. I will post some pictures when I get a chance.
 
Re: The need for speed . . .

usmcs6 said:
There are some tricks that can be done to keep the cylinders cooler on the 114TC series. I will post some pictures when I get a chance.
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Elliot that would be very very much appreciated and anyone else that can help offer me some insight on operating the engine for maximum longevity. I greatly appreciate any and all help.
 
Re: The need for speed . . .

N295TC said:
Neal I'd really like to talk to you more about this since this plane is new to me and because it has a brand new MOH, I could definitley benefit from all of you guys on how to operate my new engine for a longer life.
I have the original Insight GEM 603 but hopefully before to much longer I'd like to install the JPI 930. I need to get you to educate me more on the operations of these engines and Turbo etc.
Thanks to everyone for their help,
Click to expand...

When you have all of the data in front of you (my only problem with the old insights is you only see two temps at a time, it scrolls through the cylinders iirc rather than showing them all at once), it's actually quite simple.

Spending money on GAMI injectors trying to get LOP is a futile effort, imo. The power loss on these airplanes from ROP to LOP is much greater than other airplanes I've flown. Flying a TC LOP turns it into the same speed as a normally aspirated 114, so you're burning a lot of gas and paying for turbo maintenance for nothing.

On mine, if you want to save fuel, you pull it back to 25 or 26 inches of throttle. The power loss from that is much less than the power loss from running LOP. If you want to go fast, 29 over 23, which in the winter will make 160-165 knots on mine depending on altitude. Either way, you lean it to the X on the "mixture" label next to the lever and leave it alone.

With the TC you have two choices. Way lean, or rich of peak, nothing in between. On normally aspirated engines lots of settings will work depending on altitude. On ours you can narrow it down to about three that will work at any altitude, at the same mixture settings. So it's actually simpler than normally aspirated engines when you get right down to it.

I don't think the speeds you've posted are way off, you can get 165 knots in the winter, but not 170 unless you've got the fastest TC out there, or, are running your cylinders too hot.

BTW if I had it to do again, I would consider the EI MVP engine monitors in lieu of JPI. They have a lot more options (for instance you can add a hydraulic pressure gauge).

Some data from my JPI is attached. You'll need to download JPI's viewer app from their website.

https://www.jpinstruments.com/technical-support/software-downloads/

EZTrends is the one.
 

Attachments

Re: The need for speed . . .

Neal my Insight GEM 603 actually gives me "ALL" 6 cylinders all at the same time on the face of the screen. All 6 cylinders are on the face of the GEM 603 as I'm flying alone plus it gives me the TIT at the same time. The way I understand this GEM 603 is; as I get to cruise Altitude and have pulled the throttle back to it's cruise setting and have pulled the prop back for the RPM setting I then push and hold the GEM 603 button/pin and the EGT starts to flash and that moment I start to lean the engine by pulling the mixture back, when one of the 6 cylinders "PEAK" that cylinder will start flashing on the GEM 603, at that moment of the flashing I have found the peak, so then I rich it accordingly. (Now remember my engine only has about 18 hours since a $75,000.00 MOH and I was told by the engine shop to operate the engine at 75% power for the first 25-30 hours or so for the break-in) Now I could very well be doing all this wrong but according to the Insight GEM 603 operators manual this is how it explains the lean/rich procedure. However; once again I am truly OPEN to suggestions and I WELCOME them, I know a lot of people on public forums are hesitant to offer help and suggestions but I for one am OPEN and ASKING for anyone and everyone's help on understanding the BEST way to operate my new (new to me) airplane/engine. The engineer in me makes me over-analyze everything and there's no such thing as to much information or to much knowledge in my book. I will BLEED anyone of their knowledge especially when it comes to doing it the "BEST" and the most :EFFICIENT" way. I'm all ears. I Humbly ask for anyone that has experience to PLEASE offer me help/suggestions.
 
Re: The need for speed . . .

MY avarage TAS i get between FL80 and FL120 is 147 - 150kt. Fuel Flow LOP with 11,2 - 11,8 according to my EDM830. Power then aprox 50 - 53% according EDM830. RPM most set on 2350 and MP whatever is left in that alt :) (full open) Fastest GS i ever experienced was 4 weeks ago whcih was 203kt :)
 
Re: The need for speed . . .

Quick note,
may / may not be best thread to discuss.

JPI sets your tach time / base RPM at a certain value. Mine is 2400. Op's above 2400 will boost the tach time proportionately greater than the 1 for 1 @ 2400. Likewise, lower than 2400 results in less than 1.

So, during your initial setup, think about what your average RPM range will be.
I'm finding I'm running at 2450 to 2500 and in the back of my mind - is a thought that the (Tach Time) is running faster than what it should.:eek:
 
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