Good morning new member in Denver

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Re: Good morning new member in Denver

I have spoken to many of you and really do agree, there are some great people on here! Thank you so far.

Question - People (non-Commander people) have mentioned that the engines in the 112's with the turbos and turbo normalizing are really pushing the engine to it's limits. They say that many of the 360's won't make TBO because of that.

Before anyone get's cranky - I understand that the "people" saying this have planes that have the IO-540 in them so they have between 260 and 300 HP available to them. Plus I am fairly sure they don't know your air frames and power plants like you guys do.

Is the IO-360 a solid engine? Does it routinely make TBO? Is it pushed near it's limits in the 112?

Thanks

Dean
 
Re: Good morning new member in Denver

My 360 was at 2300 hours and not breathing hard when I decided to ovhl "just because". Time tested and relatively few issues particularly if you pay proper attention to the cam. That is not a function of the engine working "too hard", but a matter of flying regularly and using proper additives and /or incorporating direct injection lube mods.
 
Re: Good morning new member in Denver

I own a 1977 112 TCA (turbo-charged at the factory). I purchased it in 1993.

At that time, it had approx. 800 hrs on it. Other than the log books and an excellent pre-buy, I had no idea how it had been cared for since new. It has a TBO of 1800 hrs.

In 2005, at 2000 hrs., I elected to do an engine OH, not because it needed it, but like Birdstrike Bill, because it was convenient for me as I had both the time and the cash to have it done at that particular time. Compressions were still very much in limits, and no significant issues with the engine.

Today, at 3000 (1000 hrs SMOH) compressions on all four are 78/80, and it burns about 1 qt. every 40hrs.

That's my experience. YMMV.
 
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Re: Good morning new member in Denver

And remember with turbonormalizing on the IO360 you are never overboosting it so there really is no stress. It just runs at sea-level pressure all the time.

A prime reason I purchased my 112 was that IO360. Terrific reputation and difficult to get yourself into trouble with this engine.
 
Re: Good morning new member in Denver

And I would add that with any turbo, the 'bad reputation' comes from improper use by owners, which in fairness to owners is not always their fault, being just as much a function of old/poor factory instrumentation.

Lots of people make TBO with their turbos...if they keep them cool, keep clean oil in them, and don't push them too hard.
 
Re: Good morning new member in Denver

Just develop a turbo awareness for heat management added to the usual fuel management you did in a normally aspirated engine and you'll be fine.
1st
After you land do long taxis so you allow the turbo charger to spin for about 4 mins and allow its rotor and its oil to cool at a reasonable rate rather than suddenly.
The oil could turn to carbon in the tubo if it doesn't keep circulating to cool slowly.
The rotor will not have as much of a problem but the oil will if you don't allow such cool down.

2nd
In Climb always use cowl flaps to ensure good cooling flow through engine in this heat generating high power mode (also for take-off) climb is more heat exposure

3rd Descent from high.
Reduce MP slowly and hold a 300 - 500 ft per min descent or approximately descent 5 nm to 7.5 nm per 1000 ft. Leave mix lean until you reach airport vicinity.

The rest is pretty much the same as SOP
 
Re: Good morning new member in Denver

nruzic said:
After you land do long taxis so you allow the turbo charger to spin for about 4 mins and allow its rotor and its oil to cool at a reasonable rate rather than suddenly.
The oil could turn to carbon in the tubo if it doesn't keep circulating to cool slowly.
The rotor will not have as much of a problem but the oil will if you don't allow such cool down
Click to expand...

Basically, I agree with everything else Sid wrote. But this statement caught my eye, and I wanted to share some recent learning...

I just returned from the Advanced Pilot Seminar "live" course in Ada, OK taught by George Braly, Walter Atkinson, and John Deakin. These guys have what is probably the most sophisticated aircraft engine test facility in the country, and have done many, many thousands of hours of testing with all kinds of engines. Their Advanced Pilot Seminar is kind of a "college-level course" in airplane engine management. It's not inexpensive, at nearly one AMU for the live course, but they offer a full refund if you're not satisfied. Continental (the engine manufacturer) sends 3-4 people through the course every year - they believe in it that strongly.

Specifically, on this "turbo cool-down" discussion, they installed temperature measuring probes in the turbocharger (one each in the oil inlet, oil outlet, and at the bearings for both the compressor and turbine sections) on three different airplanes (IIRC, a turbo-normalized Bonanza, a turbo-Baron, and a Piper twin that uses factory turbocharged engines).

They recorded the temperatures at each of those locations from the time the airplane was landed, all the way through engine shutdown. They measured the results when the followed the "4-minute cool-down" procedure, and when they just taxied in and shut down immediately.

What they found (consistently, across all three airplane types) was that the turbocharger temperatures were lowest during the idle / taxi procedure. During the "cool-down" operation (4 minutes at idle power), turbocharger temperatures actually increased - by a minimum of 250 degrees F, and a maximum of 400 degrees F.

Without the 4-minute cool-down period, the turbo (and oil) temperatures started out lower (again, between 250-400 degrees F, compared to shutting down after a 4-minute idle period).

Both tests showed that after the engine was shut down, there was a slight rise (around 50 degrees or less) in the turbo bearing temperatures, which they attribute to heat transfer from the turbine itself. But again, the "4-minute idle" temps remained 250-400 degrees F HOTTER than the "shutdown immediately" tests.

The scientific evidence has led them to the conclusion that the recommendation to idle a turbocharged (or turbo-normalized) engine for 4 minutes actually causes the exact problem it is purported to resolve - increased temperatures of the turbocharger, with the attendant possibility of "coking" of the oil. They currently recommend to all of their customers - they developed the Tornado Alley Turbo STCs for Bonanzas, Barons, and Cirruses (Cirri?) - specifically recommends against doing any sort of "cool-down" period for the turbo. The more recent "factory turbo" Cirrus models, which use a factory-turbo engine, also carry the same recommendation in the POH.

Food for thought...
 
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Re: Good morning new member in Denver

I do allow a cool down period but it was for another reason. Turbo's spin pretty fast (30,000rpm or higher) and if you don't give them time to slow down then you could shut the engine down while the turbo was spinning at high speed which would result in oil starvation to a rotating turbo.
 
Re: Good morning new member in Denver

Commander91gm said:
I do allow a cool down period but it was for another reason. Turbo's spin pretty fast (30,000rpm or higher) and if you don't give them time to slow down then you could shut the engine down while the turbo was spinning at high speed which would result in oil starvation to a rotating turbo.
Click to expand...

This was also covered in the APS course.

At idle power, the turbo is already spinning as slowly as it ever will with the engine operating. At any engine RPM near idle power, there is very little "turbo-effect" happening. So, the real question is "How long does it take for the turbo to reach that 'low-idle' steady-state RPM?"

To find out, they instrumentation to measure the actual turbo RPM, and recorded the time it took to drop from "operating" RPM (where it is actually "compressing" air) down to "idle" RPM (where there is effectively no compression taking place). The result: less than two seconds. (Yes, you read that right: <2 seconds.)

So again, their recommendation is to allow the RPM to stabilize at idle power, and just shut down the engine without prolonged idle.
 
Re: Good morning new member in Denver

150 flights a year x 4 minutes saved =600 minutes.

You just gave me back 10 hours a year.:)
 
Re: Good morning new member in Denver

Jim

I have a lot of time in Piper Saratoga TC and rule of thumb was about 5 minutes after landing, and take a minute or two off depending on how long you taxi. I always after coming to a stop at idle watched the digital oil temp until it stopped going down and stabilized which was about 180 degrees before shutting the engine down.

Tough to understand this one "But again, the "4-minute idle" temps remained 250-400 degrees F HOTTER" as this would put your oil temp 430- 580 degrees and way to hot?

Most turbos drop out around 15" Mp and would expect to see that on Short final, and the turbo isn't doing anything after roughly 15"MP.
 
Re: Good morning new member in Denver

Paul, the 250-400°F temp deltas were for the actual turbo bearing temps, not the oil temps... Those temps went UP during idle "cool-down" period, instead of going DOWN as the proponents of the 4-minute idle cool-down would suggest.
 
Re: Good morning new member in Denver

As with that other procedure who's name shall not be mentioned, Gammi has been doing some ground breaking research, and if that's what they found, then I'm not sitting there there anymore at idle trying to "cool down the turbo" anymore.
 
Re: Good morning new member in Denver

Allen,

The Advanced Pilot Seminar is probably the "best" money I've spent on aviation education... The course packs 23 hours of learning starting Friday at 3:30 PM, ending Sunday at 3:30 PM. It is incredibly well put together, with each hour building on the foundation of the preceding hour. The time just flies by, because the delivery style is fact-filled, but also has a lot of humor in it - kind of like a Rod Machado seminar (with fewer bad puns).

If you have a digital-readout, all-cylinder engine monitor, this course teaches you how to use that EMS to diagnose all manner of maladies, and even a couple of things that could literally save your life. If you're a Savvy Analysis customer (Mike Busch's online engine monitor data viewer and analysis service), you've probably seen their recent "offering" that will help predict exhaust valve failures... The irony is that APS has been teaching the same technique Savvy uses, but shows you how to do it yourself. There are lots of other examples, as well...

All three of the principles (George Braly, Walter Atkinson, and John Deakin) have an iron-clad rule during the seminar: They present only factual information that has been demonstrably proven in their engine test cell laboratory (and can be demonstrated at any time for the skeptical). There were one or two times during the course where they broke that rule, but they specifically "flagged" those items as "opinion" or "theory" that had not (yet) been proven - although in each case they are working towards proving them.

It is not an inexpensive course, but probably one of the best values in aviation! I cannot wait for the "graduate course" they are putting together for those that want to learn even more...
 
Re: Good morning new member in Denver

RNC said:
And I would add that with any turbo, the 'bad reputation' comes from improper use by owners, which in fairness to owners is not always their fault, being just as much a function of old/poor factory instrumentation.

Lots of people make TBO with their turbos...if they keep them cool, keep clean oil in them, and don't push them too hard.
Click to expand...


Good point - plus today with the engine analyzers out there, we can get better information now
 
Re: Good morning new member in Denver

Jim,

Thanks for sharing an overview of your experience with the Advanced Pilots Seminar. Very solid information.

Dean
 
Re: Good morning new member in Denver

Welcome Codeeno. Definately look towards a Hotshot 112 or 112TC here. I fly out of KCOS and KFLY and can say it has changed my a/c shopping list considerably. Nothing like only getting 100 rpm on climb out with the family on board to make you reevaluate how much you'd spend for an a/c. Haha
 
Re: Good morning new member in Denver

Grunzen said:
Welcome Codeeno. Definately look towards a Hotshot 112 or 112TC here. I fly out of KCOS and KFLY and can say it has changed my a/c shopping list considerably. Nothing like only getting 100 rpm on climb out with the family on board to make you reevaluate how much you'd spend for an a/c. Haha
Click to expand...

Eric,

True/scary words! What do you have? I am headed out of town for 3 weeks, so maybe when I get back, I can fly down from APA or you can fly up and we can meet.

Dean
 
Re: Good morning new member in Denver

Jim, I am so glad you reported this and not me. I was contemplating mentioning it but since I do not fly a turbo, what the hell could I possibly know? Well, I guess I don't actually, but I know the guys who do know. I took that course 7 years ago and agree totally ... perhaps the best investment you can make in aviation. These are the guys who did all the tests on LOP vs. ROP, monitored CHP -- Cylinder Head PRESSURE -- which is what really matters, and set the new standards. Strangely enough, most of this was known back in the 30's as they readily point out.

All of their recommendations are from DATA and testing ... not "Old Pilot's Tales" allowed. Their test lab was just incredible. I vividly recall when they made the point about turbo idling actually increasing the bearing temps and a couple of turbo drivers almost had a meltdown right there. But APS has the test data and in data we trust.

After you attend their workshop, you'll fully understand the insanity of ROP arguments.

Oh wait ... I was not going to discuss that any more. Sorry. But I and I know Jim will fully recommend that course to anyone.
 
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