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Whoo Hooo: Crosswinds!

Re: Whoo Hooo: Crosswinds!

Maybe not hard enough. I get a diving oscillation just before Vr when the wings are alive but still steering with nosewheel. Had to fly it off and hold it in ground effect to save it.

I'll try down trim. Aileron-rudder interconnect is getting the best of me.
k

Diving oscillation, maybe too much forward pressure on elevators. I agree with Scott. Pretty stable with full load, 26 knots + gusts. Keep it planted till + gust factor speed and snap her off.
 
Re: Whoo Hooo: Crosswinds!

Wide Runway,x-wind from the right,start take-off run on the very left of the runway with the nose pointed to the far right corner of the runway.

Juergen Koehn
N5893N,114A/GT
 
Re: Whoo Hooo: Crosswinds!

Scott. I usually take off with full fuel or 3/4 full and always crank aileron into the wind when over 5 kts. Elevator control is applied as needed I believe.
I was just curious if anyone experienced this thing when direct crosswind reaches high 20's low 30's in gusts
 
Re: Whoo Hooo: Crosswinds!

Mario ... if you are talking 28- 33 knots DIRECT Xwind component, then I would want to be really heavy, and really be on top of my game. Remember the impact is exponential, not arithmetic. I don't think I would have been comfortable departing with 30 knots until I had 5 years and 1,000 hours in her and a lot of building up to that. And if you lucky, a wide runway as Juergen suggested.
 
Re: Whoo Hooo: Crosswinds!

Yeah, it was 26 kts direct gusting low 30's. Didn't feel right on take-off. I touched this subject just to find out if 114 is really harder to control on take-off rather than on landings during Xwinds of this magnitude.
I know I am a baby compared to some of you with less than 4 years mostly in cessna and pipers and 450 hrs total ( 120 in 114 ). But as you know flying in Michigan especially during winter time is not the same as in warmer states. It is quite challenging at times:-)
 
Re: Whoo Hooo: Crosswinds!

Last Monday and Tuesday there were some wild winds in Texas. At my home field which has a N-S runway (18-36) the wind was 270 fluctuating to 280 for those two days. The sustained speed was averaging 26 to 29 knots with the gusts averaging 39 to 47.

I stayed on the ground.
 
Re: Whoo Hooo: Crosswinds!

Wrote this last nite but wifi wouldn't; so trying again.

Scott wrote:[QUOTE). Breaking the "approach in a slip" habit as flown by most all Cessna drivers and taught by most all CFI's was the first challenge.[/QUOTE]


Scott - SOOH. Glad you said that!!!!!

Even now, after 34 years of flying Commanders, when the cross/control/full rudder deflection doesn't do it, or just doesn't feel comfortable; as stated I switch to Crab till down and slow enough over the #'s to cross control straight down the runway.

I had a few incidents of touchdown with a sideways drift and never like to have that stress induced to the landing gear.

My point is for years I felt guilty that I Wasn't Flying right (using crab vs MY ineffective cross control). Like "Straighten up and fly right".

After weeks of crosswinds, No xcrosswind conditions almost seem like 'cheating'.

Sid-Glad to see you back and will be in touch re May VB week as last year.

Mario- quite adventuous endeavors and good observations. Don't feel awkward about doing as jr. - say 'tomorrow'. I have heard that the heavier 114 engine is a nose (heavier) issue to what you suspect. There was a 114 guy at York Pa years ago and one windy day I flew in to the restaurant (Veal stuffed with Chesapeake lump crab) and it got really gusty. He said make sure I top off before TO. Your suspision was well known even in the 90's.
 
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Re: Whoo Hooo: Crosswinds!

I am based on the East Coast with a runway running north/south (35/17), so I've been exposed to crosswinds since I've owned the 114. I do what Scott described earlier. I am only 175 hours in as a newer owner, so the lack of rudder on heavier X-winds has been my bigger adjustment. No substitute for experience.
 
Re: Whoo Hooo: Crosswinds!

Dan/ Mario: Don't confuse 'experience' with currency. Every year in the fall and March winds- you have to regain the 'seat of the pants ( well rudder legs) and the 'feeling of the yoke:

When your actually 'Controlling' vs what you know - its the old joke that's not:
"The only landing (take off) that counts ----is the one your doing.

Thank you BOTH for sharing!
 
Re: Whoo Hooo: Crosswinds!

For the newer lower-time guys:

First, we've ALL been there, unless maybe we trained at Patuxent Test Pilot School. I am very lucky that my home base has 5-24, 9-27 and 14-32 runways. No, not because that allows me to always pick one close to the wind. Just the opposite. It gives me the opportunity to pick the worst runway and practice ... something I do often on windy days just for run. And then you know if you get tired or scare yourself, you always have an easy one to get in on. 3 exercises my old USAF instructor Sy taught me years ago that really help and I still do them:

1. Practice flying the entire length of the runway with your nose off the tarmac, especially when landing. Just don't let it touch. Find that place visually where you know your mains are just barely touching. I do this a lot on landing, just for fun. Hold the nose off as long as possible and just let it fall through at the last possible second. If the taxiway is way down, or no one is behind you, hold it off as long as you can. Find that exact speed where the plane loses that last shred of lift.

2. Practice flying the length of the runway (well if there are any obstacles maybe 2/3 of the length) with gear down with full flap, 20 degree and 10 degree, as low as you can without touching the pavement, then go around. Be very careful at full flap, just like any go around. This gives you that visual sense of just how low you can be and still be in a crab. It looks a bit different, and flies a bit different, at all 3 flap settings.

Do these until it becomes instinctual. You just "know" how close you are to touchdown.

3. Now, go out and find a good Xwind runway and practice flying a 2 mile final all the way down to the threshold and the entire runway length ... in a crab. You know you have found the right Xwind when, depending on the bird, between 12 & 15 knots flying in a slip with your foot to the floor, you just cannot hold the center line. (If you bail out on the crab and insist on going Cessna-style, speed up son, speed up, and lose some flaps. you will get more control back.) Again, this is great to do at all 3 flap settings. At first you can take it down to 15-20 feet in the crab with the gear up, which will scare the bejesus out of anyone watching you. So maybe announce you are making a low pass, gear up. Then when you get the visual cues down, go fly the crab with gear and flaps down, but don't land. Just hold the entire runway length. Practice kicking the crab out a few times down the runway and watch what happens. Do this lower as you are comfortable but be damn careful because you are still holding the crab. But notice how much easier and more comfortable you are than trying to hold that damn slip all the way down with your foot on the floor and you making bargains with God for just one more chance.

Now you are there. Fly that crab down to just entering the flare then begin to kick it out to line the nose up with the runway. (I am presuming you are over the center line!) As you do, feed in aileron into the wind to counter the drift and hold the center line. Low wing is now into the wind, nose is straight down the runway, keep pulling and done right, there should only be a second or two to touchdown. As soon as you touch down crank that aileron over hard into the wind and be prepared with opposite rudder until you slow down.

Wasn't that easy? It does take a while before it becomes instinctive, for sure. But you get it down, and you feel totally confident. 15-20 knot Xwinds become fun. 20-25 become intense but curious, because you know you will be okay of you just follow the steps. Over 25? You may want to stay home. I have done a few now. 28 G 33 in Monticello Utah, and 27 g 35 at EYE Eagle Creek, Indy, last May. My passengers eyes were bugging out at Indy , but I told him exactly what was going to happen, so he was cool. The lineman made a big deal how now one had landed for several hours. My colleague talked about it the whole rest of the day. Of course, I was able to assume the "no big deal ... I am P I L O T" posture.

Take your time. Have fun. Ask for help. Keep learning. That's what we all do.
 
I have not experienced that ... interesting. First, having full fuel will help. Second, crank in some extra downward trim and hold it tight to the runway until you reach lift0ff + gust factor. Third, are you cranking it the aileron hard?

That is indeed an issue. Seems like our birds need more aileron cranked in than some others to get the downwind wing in the air first.
 
Re: Whoo Hooo: Crosswinds!

Thanks everyone for sharing Xwind experiences and techniques. No matter what your technique during xwinds the main thing is longitudinal axis, center line, airspeed. I can't tell you how many times during my first 200 hrs ( and still doing today ! ) I keep talking loud to myself " longitudinal axis, center line, airspeed ". Personally, helps me a lot.
Scott. I've done some wild things at Oscoda. 11800' runway is great for exercises you've described. That's a fun place to practice. During my training my CFI made me land on left main holding nose wheel up than on the right main still holding nose wheel up than on left again, and the right.. I think I've made 5-6 touch downs on two different mains while holding nose up and aligned with center line.. that was scary at first but later I always looked forward doing this exercise.
With long runway like that no basically no traffic that is an ideal place to let imagination go...:-)
 
Re: Whoo Hooo: Crosswinds!

I really appreciated my CFI. He taught crab landings from the very first one. We took on some pretty good crosswinds and I've never worried much about them. Like Scott said so well, know the limits of the plane and then know your own personal limits.

As I said the crab landing was what I was taught. I learned in a Cessna like most. He apparently isn't the normal teacher. It was two weeks before my checkride and the CFI said I would need to demonstrate a slip to landing. I asked him what that was and I was introduced to that procedure which I find so unnatural and much more work. I don't like slips much.
 
Re: Whoo Hooo: Crosswinds!

I don't mind slips and actually enjoy slipping but only to loose altitude quickly without gaining airspeed. I do not perform this maneuver for landing.
As for CFI I also got really lucky. Learned a lot well beyond PTS. He was also notorious for giving me 3rd degree and really pissing me off by creating ridiculous distractions, especially while performing different type of maneuvers or during concentration while navigating under hood. On one flight I told him to get me the &&#$&#* home and that I don't want to fly with him anymore. All that changed few days later when I overheard him talking to another CFI how Mario operates under stress.
All became clear at this moment and nothing he'd say in the future would affect my stress level. I just smiled and asked if he took double doze of " sarcastic pills " this particular morning. I believe he never figured out what was the reason I became so relaxed. Hell.. I was even able to get back at him at few occasions.
To make a long story short.. I know I was not the easiest student to teach as I started my lessons after my 50th birthday and not to crazy about flying at all.
I am sure there are great CFIs out there but I am very happy with my choice when it comes to CFI
 
Re: Whoo Hooo: Crosswinds!

My thoughts - 1st Shearman very correct
Don't confuse 'experience' with currency. Thank you BOTH for sharing!
both experience and currency are vital.

2nd Before you start the T-O roll be sure airleron is fully cranked into the wind to yoke stops and hold it there as you roll forward with full rudder. Pitch is less important than these 2. But hold nose down to assure gust induced AOA (angle of attack) doesn't ballon you up only to bring you down.

Very soon it will lighten up on the wheels so keep the airleron in - some pilots I've seen take airleron out anticipating take-off. Hold it in if you don't it will drift, skip etc.

Then as you T-O let it swing into a crab and neutral airleron. This is a sort of reverse of the crab landing. Practice and develop the muscle memory for this.

Avoid ground effect because gusts should be respected and get some sky between wings and ground.
 
Re: Whoo Hooo: Crosswinds!

Scott,

I appreciate your advice. I have all of 40 hours in my new 114 and I am no where near comfortable in this airplane in crosswinds. I feel like Im out of rudder when I push the throttle up in the slightest of a crosswind. My home airport is 40' wide and 2700' long at SL. While I will never trade the 114 for a Cessna, I have to say I was more than comfortable doing 25kt crosswind landings in any Cessna I flew because I felt had so much more rudder authority than I do in the 114. I know I clearly need more experience at crosswinds but I sure dont want to end up in the weeds trying to get it.

Tim
 
Don't forget to use your ailerons on takeoff. It's usually in on landing or you will drift when you align the nose with he runway. Lots of pilots forget to start with a wing down into the wind on take off
 
Re: Whoo Hooo: Crosswinds!

Scott,

I appreciate your advice. I have all of 40 hours in my new 114 and I am no where near comfortable in this airplane in crosswinds. I feel like Im out of rudder when I push the throttle up in the slightest of a crosswind. My home airport is 40' wide and 2700' long at SL. While I will never trade the 114 for a Cessna, I have to say I was more than comfortable doing 25kt crosswind landings in any Cessna I flew because I felt had so much more rudder authority than I do in the 114. I know I clearly need more experience at crosswinds but I sure dont want to end up in the weeds trying to get it.

Tim

are you flying final approach in a slip or a crab?
 
Re: Whoo Hooo: Crosswinds!

Had to share this one:

We've talked alot here about crosswinds, takeoff & landing techniques, but today's flight was something I can never recall experiencing. We finished up the Elevator Spar AD Saturday (more on that interesting job with the Harrison STC kit another time) and now 4/1- due for the Annual.

Plan was to do a short flight to properly 'warm up the engine' for the 'hot' compression test. First compression test since last years 'return to service' after the 'rebuild'.

Figured a RR flight over the Tree Farm, 8 NM SE, would do it. Again the forecast was wrong, no calm sunny day; sun & good sized cumulus clouds & the Crosswind was direct 240 on the 15-33 Runway at HWY. One windsock seemed to favor 33 by 3-5 deg- intermittently.

Was clear that a no flap, nose down trim, lift off well after Vx, (for safety of control), was appropriate.
Don't think I ever had a bumpier crosswind takeoff.
Right after lift off- BAM- the jolts were just not a wing rock, were like a Jeep on a rocky road. Even with 90 indicated, the jolts and constant rock & roll (pitch and roll impacts at 200-800 ft AGL kept setting off the stall warning horn. Well- Annual item- it works! The bumpy bumpies never stopped and so no slow circling the house, did just a flyover and straight back to the airport. Had to use 'up trim' to keep level- as there were constant down draft orographics.

Descending, was like a roller coaster. Was able to maintain 90 indicated, and 10^ of flaps on 1 mi final, but crossed the runway #'s at 85, then cut back the power slowly and 'flew it onto the runway like a jet landing. Since I was going to the other end of the runway to the Maintenace shop-, thought I'd just taxi fast to the runway end, but then I heard another guy say 'Warrenton, 1 mi final', so exited midfield. Usually land more gently and 'slower', but it was necessary today to be faster-much faster. Anyway, was quite an intense 20 minute flight. Found some interesting things during the inspection, maybe unique to the TC/TCAs. Will post them.
 
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