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What would you do?

peter.schuttinga

peter.schuttinga

New member
Victoria BC
Aircraft Year
1973
Aircraft Type
112/A
Serial Number
30
Hi everyone. I am an owner of a 1973 112, serial number 30. Great flying bird, and have been enjoying her for 3 years now.
So here goes my problem. She is in for her annual, and there is a lot of aluminum in the oil filter. (only about 26 flying hours this year, nothing noticed last year). The mechanic pulled one cylinder, the outcome is the engine needs to be overhauled. Since the engine only has about 600 hours on it, I was not prepared for this expense. I have some calls in to get quotes for rebuilding the engine but I have a general idea of what this number will be.
I wish I could afford this expense, but my reality will not allow it. I will start looking for a used IO360, but I am nervous about inheriting someone else's problem. Is there a market for a 112 in need of an engine, and if so, what could I reasonable expect? Any suggestions?
thanks in advance
peter
 
Re: What would you do?

I have an excellent AP/IA that is super good regarding building engines so I would prefer to buy one that needed an engine but it would have to be in airworthy condition to fly to my airport.

I would expect the condition of the airplane/avionics and engine would be reflected in the purchase price.
In other words - if I was in the market for an airplane, it would be a plus - depending on the rest of the airplane and what I would have to do to it to make it what I wanted it to be. I think the bottom line is - it will all depend on what a potential buyer is looking for.
 
Re: What would you do?

Peter - it would probably be worthwhile to give long-time COG member and officer Judi Anderson a call to have that discussion. But in general I'd take the retail value with the avionics and general condition then back out the cost of the motor work needed along with the associated logistics for transporting it to wherever.

I'm afraid it won't end up with much retail value in that fashion. I like the idea of sourcing a used engine better.

Good luck either way.
 
Re: What would you do?

Well Peter, I agree with the others and the perspective from a recent buyer I would have love to get into these planes by purchasing one like yours and start with a New engine. I would love to here more details and picture of your plane. Could you post them or email me directly at N157CW@gmail.com.
 
Re: What would you do?

I would have a retest if the oil done incase it was a freak sample or mistake. As with anything with people doing jobs mistakes are possible. Before selling the plane or shelling out for a new engine I would take the time to have a retest of the oil completed if possible.

There are of course alternatives in the scenario if the engine needs to be dealt with? Would partnering the plane offer a source of cash that can be used for the overhaul/new engine? Just thinking of options.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Re: What would you do?

if I'm reading that right and it's just 600 hrs. on the eng., why couldn't you just do an IRAN (teardown/internal repair as necessary) for approx. 1/2 the cost of a fresh overhaul?

Judi
 
Re: What would you do?

1st off... it depends on how much metal.
2nd off... what did pulling off a cylinder allow? Did he then look at the cam/lifters and then note damage and then state an overhaul was needed?
3rd...check the prop governor screen. Any metal? if not, that is a very good sign that metal did not flow through the engine and was caught in the filtration.
4th... agree with Judi. It is likely that many of your components are just fine and do not require anything. Last IRAN I was involved in (4 years ago) ran right at 10k and was done by a shop in Cinci. MUCH less than an overhaul.

Not saying you will not end up there... but "overhaul" gets used quite easily when it is not their wallet :)
 
Re: What would you do?

Certainly agree with all the comments.

There is a lot to be said for a tear down, thorough wash down of ALL parts and a look see at them with a micro scope to assess for damage by oil trash to contact bearing/metal to metal surfaces and wear groves.

This would be my first step. (what I have done to car racing engines).

Appreciate the cost estimates. Experienced them back in 2011.

Better to get a CLEAN estimate of really needed items/things that need to be repaired/resurfacing done.

Hope for a good outcome to you.
 
Re: What would you do?

and yes as Jason's #2; you would first pull a cyl. and look @ the cam before proceeding w/a full teardown. $$

Judi
 
Re: What would you do?

Hi all,
Thanks all for your responses, much appreciated. He showed me the cut apart filter, lots of small flakes, all non ferous, so best guess is aluminum. The mechanic did mention having a engine flush/inspection done.
His thoughts are that one of the end caps which fit in the piston is rubbing. This engine has had great compression, all at 78.
Cylinder we pulled looked great, walls looked great, rings looked great. Then he disconnected the pushrod and removed the shell bearings. One shell bearing is missing material, approx 1/2" square. Did not feel to have affected cam surface, but it was only a visual inspection.
I am hopeful that IRAN maybe all she needs, and waiting for the engine shop to get back to me for a quote.
Peter
 
Re: What would you do?

At 600 hours, I would give Western Skyways a call for their IRAN. It'll run $10k plus whatever damaged parts need replacing.

Ken
 
Re: What would you do?

Hi Peter,

Responding to Allen's suggestion: I'll say I do have a current IO-390 inquiry. That's a possible source of a serviceable IO-360.

Jim
 
Re: What would you do?

80 on the high end - using a differential tester - approaching 60 would be the bottom. No more than 10 psi difference between cylinders.
.
 
Re: What would you do?

I agree with the rest of the flock. Really need to understand the extent of the damage. In terms of selling the bird, if you find the right buyer, it's a selling point to start of with a fresh engine. However, test flight, pre-purchase, ferry flight, etc becomes challenging.

I have a Mooney friend who was test flying an older Mooney with the Owner. The engine had a catastrophic failure while they were overhead the airport. No issues caused by the forced landing at the airport. He bought the aircraft, at the owner's asking price, less the price of a new engine. Followed by a pre-purchase at the airport.

All in all .. Call Judi.
 
Re: What would you do?

with regards to comp readings: you need to see the "trending". look for comp readings along w/the assoc. tach times for the last 5-6 yrs/annuals.
if readings keep coming down then that's your indicator there's something happening. if they're all holding steady then just run it and watch it by
monitoring your oil consumption and doing reg. oil analysis.

Judi
 
Re: What would you do?

Do you have oil analysis taken? Just did my first oil change and analysis on my new Commander and while some levels are high compression is good and there is no metal in the oil, filter or screen. From reading Mike Busch book it’s about patterns most engines will not just catastrophically fail without some warning signs. Do you have an engine monitor?

Here were my results from my first oil analysis.
61011a70c6a322abab6c7de9218b0736.jpg
 
Re: What would you do?

Commander91gm said:
80 on the high end - using a differential tester - approaching 60 would be the bottom. No more than 10 psi difference between cylinders.
.
Click to expand...

I was looking through an engine log and they referenced some compression readings as hot and some as cold.....why is that??
 
Re: What would you do?

Hot compressions, where internal components have expanded to fit tighter will generally yeild slightly higher numbers.
Either way is legal (cold or hot.) Many will do it cold and if they feel the numbers are a bit low they will repeat it hot to see the numbers.
 
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