Unusual cross-shopping

[Second Officer Alex]

hello COG!

For several months now I've been looking at Commanders, especially 114s, but recently during my almost daily trade-a-plane searches I started looking at, and comparing the Cirrus SR20 to the 114. Why the SR20, and not the 22? Well, simply put, price. An "older" SR20 is very comparable in price to the 114s. Essentially, the only area where they are not in the same category is in useful load. Both have 2 doors, which is a big plus, and something I'm trying to stick with. Both have similar dimensions, with the Cirrus being 2 inches wider, but I believe slightly shorter. both have similar speeds, but the SR20 has the advantage of the smaller engine using less gas. Cirrus maintenance and parts are likely more, but I am an A&P, and as far as parts, being a good 20-30 years newer, chances are that there are less reliability issues, with everything being the same. Insurance quotes for me ended up being almost the same, even though the Cirrus is not high performance, and has a fixed gear. The reason for this according to the broker was that the parachute automatically totals the plane, and pilots will deploy it instead of trying to land the plane, but that's an entirely different conversation. But there is the added cost of repacking the chute every 10 years, which is currently costing about $12k. But annuals "should" be quicker and simpler without the gear swing, and that also eliminates a bunch of components to replace or maintain. Anyway, you get the idea. Please let me know what your ideas are, and mention anything that I am not thinking about. Thanks,

Alex

PS, I still think the Commanders look better!

 

[Merlin83b]

Re: Unusual cross-shopping

As you identify, a 114 is more comparable to an SR22. For an SR20, perhaps you should be comparing to a 112.


Our flying syndicate has compared our 114 to an SR22 many times and every time has come up with the result that it would be pretty comparable on running cost but a significant capital investment.


Not to advertise the competition, but COPA is an active organisation and if you're actively considering a Cirrus, you would do well to sign up there. In particular they have a good review of all the chute pulls worldwide. Many aircraft that have descended under BRS are flying again, but if it comes to that then that should be the last thing on your mind - that's what insurance is for!

 

[Commander91gm]

Re: Unusual cross-shopping

My concern with composite planes has always been the inability to do any kind of field repairs on the airframe. Dent a metal planes wing and any good A&P can get you back in the air. We had a Columbia damaged at my airport from a runway excursion and the plane had to be disassembled, put on a truck and sent to the factory to be repaired.

 

[jukelemon]

Re: Unusual cross-shopping

I have heard, no real experience, that the Cirrus is not an easy plane to work on and therefore maint costs are much more?

Also, the 22 I flew was much faster than any 114. How are they even comparable in performance?

Lastly...I hated the seats in the 22 as well as the lack of a yoke lol.

Personally, I do not consider the Cirrus and Commander to be comparable given the performance differences.

 

[flyfred3]

Re: Unusual cross-shopping

I was in a Cirrus SR22 group for a couple of years, I could not get used to the castering nose wheel, it was awful. the Continental engine also gave us problems. I will stick to my bomb proof Lycoming powered 115 with proper gear.

 

[traderaviator]

Re: Unusual cross-shopping

$15,000 mandatory Chute repack also something to consider as well as their "not-so-good" record of withstanding any major impact.

Early model also came with brakes that tend to catch fire.

SR22 is a much different beast compared to the SR20, the SR22 is more comparable to a 115 turbo.

Slick looking, just not comparable in my opinion (not that they are bad AC)

 

[Second Officer Alex]

Re: Unusual cross-shopping

As you identify, a 114 is more comparable to an SR22. For an SR20, perhaps you should be comparing to a 112.


Our flying syndicate has compared our 114 to an SR22 many times and every time has come up with the result that it would be pretty comparable on running cost but a significant capital investment.


Not to advertise the competition, but COPA is an active organisation and if you're actively considering a Cirrus, you would do well to sign up there. In particular they have a good review of all the chute pulls worldwide. Many aircraft that have descended under BRS are flying again, but if it comes to that then that should be the last thing on your mind - that's what insurance is for!

The 22 out performs the 114 in every aspect, except the price. And yes, the SR20 would seem more comparable to a 112, but I think it's closer to the 114 in real world numbers.

My concern with composite planes has always been the inability to do any kind of field repairs on the airframe. Dent a metal planes wing and any good A&P can get you back in the air. We had a Columbia damaged at my airport from a runway excursion and the plane had to be disassembled, put on a truck and sent to the factory to be repaired.

The composite part is something I had not considered, good point on that.

I have heard, no real experience, that the Cirrus is not an easy plane to work on and therefore maint costs are much more?

Also, the 22 I flew was much faster than any 114. How are they even comparable in performance?

Lastly...I hated the seats in the 22 as well as the lack of a yoke lol.

Personally, I do not consider the Cirrus and Commander to be comparable given the performance differences.

I have not worked on a Cirrus, and since I recently started looking into them, I haven't done the appropriate research on the maintenance side yet. As far as the seats, I've never even had a chance to sit in one.

I was in a Cirrus SR22 group for a couple of years, I could not get used to the castering nose wheel, it was awful. the Continental engine also gave us problems. I will stick to my bomb proof Lycoming powered 115 with proper gear.

I know that the continental is something that isn't as trouble free as the Lycos, they have a lot of problems with valves sticking. As for the castering nose, I havent been in a plane like that yet.

$15,000 mandatory Chute repack also something to consider as well as their "not-so-good" record of withstanding any major impact.

Early model also came with brakes that tend to catch fire.

SR22 is a much different beast compared to the SR20, the SR22 is more comparable to a 115 turbo.

Slick looking, just not comparable in my opinion (not that they are bad AC)

Yes, that chute repack is a huge expense, but recent repacks is one of the things m looking for in what I'm even considering.

Thank you all for your opinions and things that I didn't know, or didn't consider. Keep them coming!

 

[alexnor]

Re: Unusual cross-shopping

I got my private on an SR20. Have flown the 22 and the 22 Turbo. I currently own a Commander 112TCA, which is very close to an SR20 on performance, except the TCA being Turbo charged has a ceiling of 20,000 feet and is more efficient at altitude. I just wanted an airplane with few limitations.

I always liked the Cirrus planes but I have zero motivation to separate from my Commander. I have not flown a Cirrus newer than 2008 but I can tell you that after a three-hour trip I had a hard time with the comfort of the seats. Discomfort began about two hours in. That may or may not have changed on newer models but I can also tell you that on the Commander I fly four hours plus and come out comfortable and feeling good instead of feeling like I took a beating.

The TCA is very stable IFR platform. If you also look at the design details of late Commanders you will see several features that Cirrus began offering just a few years ago such as lit steps, the door locking mechanism and more.

If you are going to look at a 22 or a 22 Turbo then fuel consumption is a consideration against a TCA for example. Yes it will go faster but it’s a balancing act.

Don’t have any experience to share about 114s but I am sure their owners will be happy to.

 

[Second Officer Alex]

Re: Unusual cross-shopping

I got my private on an SR20. Have flown the 22 and the 22 Turbo. I currently own a Commander 112TCA, which is very close to an SR20 on performance, except the TCA being Turbo charged has a ceiling of 20,000 feet and is more efficient at altitude. I just wanted an airplane with few limitations.

I always liked the Cirrus planes but I have zero motivation to separate from my Commander. I have not flown a Cirrus newer than 2008 but I can tell you that after a three-hour trip I had a hard time with the comfort of the seats. Discomfort began about two hours in. That may or may not have changed on newer models but I can also tell you that on the Commander I fly four hours plus and come out comfortable and feeling good instead of feeling like I took a beating.

The TCA is very stable IFR platform. If you also look at the design details of late Commanders you will see several features that Cirrus began offering just a few years ago such as lit steps, the door locking mechanism and more.

If you are going to look at a 22 or a 22 Turbo then fuel consumption is a consideration against a TCA for example. Yes it will go faster but it’s a balancing act.

Don’t have any experience to share about 114s but I am sure their owners will be happy to.

Thanks for your inputs. What I have looked at are all 20s, 22s are way over my budget. An I supposed when considering the 112TCA, that would really be the contender against the 20s. As far as comfort, I do want something that I cna comfortably fly for 4 hours, so this is a big point for the Commander.

 

[RNC]

Re: Unusual cross-shopping

There are three choices for later model used airplanes with a lot of elbow room up front.

The Cirrus, as you know. The Commander is another, and a Socata GT is the other option.

The Cirrus gets a lot narrower in the back a lot sooner than the Commander does. The Commander has a more comfortable rear two seats by far, if that matters. The Socata and the Cirrus have the benefit of either no yoke or a recessed panel to make for a little more leg room, whereas the Commander has a typical flat instrument panel with yokes sticking out of it.

That said, the Commander seat rails have a LOT of travel, so you can slide yourself plenty far away from the yoke no matter how tall you are.

The Cirrus will be the fastest of the bunch, as it should be, because it's a slick composite structure with narrow wings and without any rivets sticking out of it.

I have no experience with the Socata, other than multiple Socata owners wanting to buy my Commander when I sold it. They complained about parts prices being too high.

Commander parts are mostly available from the couple of shops that deal in Commanders here in the U.S. for much less than 'corporate' prices. I found it very cheap to maintain, all things considered.

 

[gmores]

Re: Unusual cross-shopping

Thanks for your inputs. What I have looked at are all 20s, 22s are way over my budget. An I supposed when considering the 112TCA, that would really be the contender against the 20s. As far as comfort, I do want something that I cna comfortably fly for 4 hours, so this is a big point for the Commander.

and don't forget to look at the 112 turbonormalized Commander, usually referred to as the 'Hot Shot'. There are actually more 112 HS out there now than the factory 112 turbocharged aircraft.

Some reading here if you haven't already found it.

 

[alim]

Re: Unusual cross-shopping

All valid points and a reasonable comparison.
The main reason I don't like any composite GA airplane for that matter :

Composite.
- Pro : You can shape composites any which way you want - hence a cleaner airframe, lighter and faster.
- Con : All composite defects are hard to detect and there is no warning on certain failures (non-visible). It just breaks. If there is an internal defect in the resin - you'll be the first to find out.

a Metal airplane (Commander is just one of them) :

- Pro : Metal bends before failure. Unless a crack goes unnoticed, you will have fore-warning. Rivets loose ? u get smoking rivets. You overstressed it ? you will see wrinkles in the skin.
- Cons : heaver ; riveted and hard to create a slippery shape.

Hence the main pro of the composite cruise speeds. if its worth it to you, its definitely slicker airframes. I just like tried and tested. Everything else is ergonomics.

I would buy a composite boat all day long. Just not an airplane.

Now someone will counter with the extensive use of composites in e.g Dreamliner 787 etc. ok. Boeing also developed both thermal and ultrasonic imaging inspections to go along with it. Your plastic airplane doing the same ? When it does and thats what you do every annual, I'll ante up. The stethoscope tap test just doesn't cut it for me ...

 

[Pat]

Re: Unusual cross-shopping

When we visited Williams Aeromotive during the French Lick Fly In, Roy had a wing form a Cirrus and a Commander. The Cirrus was considerably heavier. The fiberglass spar and the surface area was very heavy comparing it to the aluminum skin. It did not have the advantage of the egg monoshell construction of the body. But it did have the advantage of much less labor to produce.
Another disadvantage of the composite is to inspect if there is damage. Even ultrasound may not show damage. I have been told any load on the firewall can total the plane.

 

[atjudge]

Re: Unusual cross-shopping

If it matters at all to you, Park the Cirrus, Socata and Commander on the ramp together and most everyone will walk past the Cirrus and Socata to the Commander and Admire it.

 

[Second Officer Alex]

Re: Unusual cross-shopping

I have no experience with the Socata, other than multiple Socata owners wanting to buy my Commander when I sold it. They complained about parts prices being too high.

I looked into the TB series, but it does seem the parts are much more expensive and hard to come by....but that's also what I heard about the commanders before I actually started researching them.

 

[Second Officer Alex]

Re: Unusual cross-shopping

and don't forget to look at the 112 turbonormalized Commander, usually referred to as the 'Hot Shot'. There are actually more 112 HS out there now than the factory 112 turbocharged aircraft.

Some reading here if you haven't already found it.

Initially I wasn't looking at 112s, but the TC/TCA/Hotshot does still fit my mission, and are now also part of my search. I did get the opportunity to fly with Robert Gorman in his beautiful plane, and Scott Law also offered it, I just haven't met up with him yet, but the 114 experience may have jaded me. Hopefully when I do find a 112TC to ride in it will still be something that gets my attention. Although, coming from a Cherokee 140, I'm sure it will still be a world of difference.

 

[atjudge]

Re: Unusual cross-shopping

I'm east of St Louis, you're welcome here to look/ride in mine

 

[Second Officer Alex]

Re: Unusual cross-shopping

I'm east of St Louis, you're welcome here to look/ride in mine

I usually fly into Creve Cour when I'm in that area. I'll let you know, thanks!

 

[RNC]

Re: Unusual cross-shopping

I looked into the TB series, but it does seem the parts are much more expensive and hard to come by....but that's also what I heard about the commanders before I actually started researching them.

The Commander factory didn't put a whole lot of effort into modifying and obscuring part references.

If it's off the shelf (and most wear items are), it likely has the original manufacturer's part number and you can find it without the extra layer of price markup.

 

[plight]

Re: Unusual cross-shopping

Just to add... the early model SR20/22 chute replacement/repack required the fuselage top blow out panel to be cut off the aircraft to facilitate the chute/rocket to be removed from the aircraft. More recent models, pull the chute/rocket through a bulkhead in the fuselage. On the earlier models, the blow out panel had to be re-attached, fill, prime, paint, etc.