Flying over water - Does this bother you?

[Lawrence Rippon]

Took a trip from Gerona, Spain to Valencia, Spain last week via the Mediterranean. I realised that this was the first time I had ever had to zoom the GNS 430 screen out to 50 miles to find the shore. Due to the airspace around Barcelona, the part of the route furtherest from shore had to be flown at the lowest altitude, 2000'. Since getting home, some of my flying buddies think I am mad to route 200 miles across water. My response is that the aircraft doesn't know it is over water, so why should a breakdown be any more likely. I didn't like my chances in low cloud around the mountainous coast at low level in the VFR routes.
So, the question is, when the GPS screen is entirely blue, does it bother you? Do I have an unhealthy lack of respect for what is underneath me or do my flying buddies just need to get out more?

 

[John_Ferguson]

Re: Flying over water - Does this bother you?

Lawrence,
I have been reading your Blogg, seems like you had a great time.

As for flying over water, I have come to the conclusion that in UK and Europe all the best routes seem to involve water crossings sooner or later.
For me personally I do not mind it although I always have lifejackets on (each has its own PLB) and have the life raft handy on the back seat if only two up.
If the back seats are full then the raft sits propped up between the seat in the luggage hold and I make sure everyone is well briefed.

My first long distance flight in my plane was with Mike Perry when we flew to Denmark, it was November and the winds were in the high thirties.
We had to cross a stretch of the North Sea in Germany that was about 40 miles across.
There were plenty of white tops to the sea and the engine had only done about 7 hours at that point.
I remember sitting there willing the engine to keep running!

I think you weigh the risks and make your decision but the way I see it is we cross large expanses of dangerous terrain (mountains and desolate moorland etc)
and never think twice about it. As you say the plane does not know what its flying over.

Minimise the risks, take all the precautions you can and that's about all you can do.

And if that's not enough, buy a twin Commander.

 

[todd92]

Re: Flying over water - Does this bother you?

I have life jackets, PLB's w/ GPS and a raft. Flying over any amount of water bothers me none. Flying over desolate heavily wooded terrain does.

 

[FS]

Re: Flying over water - Does this bother you?

My response is that the aircraft doesn't know it is over water, so why should a breakdown be any more likely.

Precisely.

There were other comments here about over-water routes not too long ago. I live on an island, so it's hard to avoid crossing some amount of water to get to anywhere interesting. Some of the most popular destinations around here happen to be on other islands.

 

[Plummit]

Re: Flying over water - Does this bother you?

Water doesn't bother me as much as heavily congested cities @ 1000 to 2000 feet. At least if I go down in the water I will most probably survive the "landing". In the "hard-scape" surrounding SoCal, surviving the "landing" is less certain. YMMV

regards

~Marc

 

[atjudge]

Re: Flying over water - Does this bother you?

I have no problem flying over water as long as I'm propared. As has already been mentioned, life Jackets, PLB's and maybe rafts will give you a real good chance of having a great story to tell if the engine decides to quit. Just remember, when ditching on water, never, ever lower the landing gear prior to touchdown. You'll find yourself upside down in an instant. Leave the gear up, use some flaps, make sure the shoulder harness is tight, and mentally go over what you'll do as soon as the airplane comes to a stop.

 

[alim]

Re: Flying over water - Does this bother you?

I've done Miami -> Puerto Rico -> St. Maarten numerous times.
You're well out of gliding distance to any land.

Some pilots i've flown with tend to ignore the fact that they're over water, hoping for the best.

You should be mentally prepared to ditch in water at any moment and have the equipment necessary to survive the aftermath (life-raft, PLB, radios, water, MREs)

Once you get past that, all the islands open up.

 

[aaaprod]

Re: Flying over water - Does this bother you?

Around here we have to deal with extended trips over the water. I keep the life jackets within reach. Had a flight instructor tell me that if a ditching was going to be required he told me to pick a spot on the GPS and radio the quordinates in of where you plan on putting it down so search and resque has a location to start the search from. On the 430/530 it is easy to do. Just activate the cursure pointer and move it to where you will be ditching. Read off the location over the radio and fly to that point.

 

[brendan_jackman]

Re: Flying over water - Does this bother you?

Just a quicky, make sure your PLB has 406mhz transmitter pref with GPS. 121.5 is no longer monitored and it will just be pure luck if your heard. Most are now dual 406 and 121.5 to allow for gps positioning followed by SAR helicopter final tracking.

 

[Lawrence Rippon]

Re: Flying over water - Does this bother you?

On Brendan's point, the latest edition of GASIL has a report on some problems locating PLB's where the antenna was not fully extended.

The consensus seems to be that water is not a problem if you are "prepared" to ditch in it. Well, I'm not prepared to ditch in it. I mean that in the metaphorical sense not the physical sense. If I thought that the aircraft was in any realistic danger of not making it over a 200 mile stretch of any surface it wouldn't leave the ground. Yes I have a pile of safety equipment in the aircraft and never leave without wearing a lifejacket if more than a couple of miles off shore but I never leave on a long sea trip without having the engineers take a look at the bits I personally don't fully understand. For this particular trip I had a 50 hour check carried out 9 hours early, along with a load of non standard checks. In total, over the two weeks of the trip we flew over water for 546 miles. I had total confidence that the engine/electrics were in perfect order before I left. I prefer to work with the view that if you mitigate the risk before leaving the risk of failure en-route is minimised to the same as flying over anything else and as pointed out by many above, probably less than the risk of city flying.
So, now I feel ready for the North Atlantic. Iceland anyone?

 

[brendan_jackman]

Flying over water - Does this bother you?

Hi Lawrence,
Theres no problem flying over water but I would stress the need for a bit of what if, just in case. Have you ever flown over towns or fields and considered what you would do if? The same should apply for the ocean. Less to hit but thats only the start of your survival. I spend most of my time at work over the North Atlantic. Although I have two engines I spend a lot of time where the second engine just brings you to the scene of the accident.

Deep pockets time but on the aircraft we have Liferafts, automatic PLBs and all crew wear immersion suits and lifejackets with STASS, sprayhoods, flares, 406 GPS PLB, strobes.

It may seem over kill but if your looking to operate over the Ocean regularly theres a few things to consider. Even if 1 mile off shore, if your 25 miles from a lifeboat station youll spend over an hour in the water,its not the distance out thats important, its the distance from rescue assets. Most people in standard clothes in Northern Europe will be unconcious in about 45 mins. An immersion suit gives you about another hour.
If windy and you have no spray hood on your life jacket you can actually drown on the surface.
The best survival aid is a liferaft but only if it has a cover. Then you are out of the water and out of the wind. Chances of survival are greatly increased. However if windy you must have a way of securing your liferaft before inflation, if not it will blow away and you will never swim to it. If you get a chance try swimming with your LJ inflated! BUT if you secure it to your aircraft make sure you have a weaklink or knife to get loose if it starts to go down.

Finally and most importantly, dont dress to be comfortable, dress to survive. Its better to be uncomfortably warm for a few hours in the cockpit then exposed within an hour.

We utilise an underwater escape unit in Cork city for ditching and survival training. Not sure how much they charge and what cost but if people are interested let me know and Ill find out.

However, dont fear it, chances are nothing will ever happen, just be prepared.

 

[brendan_jackman]

Re: Flying over water - Does this bother you?

However sometimes it does:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rwRuV5jHb4

Earlier this year one of our machines lifted a guy out of the water south of Wexford. Got a mayday call out with no position luckly he was spotted by to gents going around the coast in a rowing boat!
Smartly though he was wearing a 5mm shorty wet suit under his clothes.

PS despite what the newsreader says it was the Irish Coast Guard not the Air Corps. Good accurate aviation jorno as usual!

 

[Lawrence Rippon]

Re: Flying over water - Does this bother you?

However sometimes it does:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rwRuV5jHb4

Earlier this year one of our machines lifted a guy out of the water south of Wexford. Got a mayday call out with no position luckly he was spotted by to gents going around the coast in a rowing boat!
Smartly though he was wearing a 5mm shorty wet suit under his clothes.

PS despite what the newsreader says it was the Irish Coast Guard not the Air Corps. Good accurate aviation jorno as usual!

Ah! the joys of homebuild. Frankly I'd be wearing a wetsuit too if I had built the aircraft myself. Thanks for the sage advice. I know you get to see the sharp end of this issue, it's like the people who go and climb a mountain in a "T" shirt and wonder why they have to be rescued, they are simply not prepared. Most pilots are prepared however.

I still think the risk of ditching is very small. It is a similar risk to that which is taken by flying in an airliner over water. They give you those lifejackets just to make you feel better while you are listening to the safety brief, aside from the Hudson incident, I can't think of many "out at sea" incidents where they have been particularly useful. I belong to the largest flying club in the UK with 1040 members, no one has ever ditched.

While at Le Touquet last weekend, the Operations man told me he had received 150 inbound flight plans that morning, no ditching reported.

My personal view is that many of the problems concerning aviation safety in general is an attitude that some amateur fliers have of being "Those Magnificent Men in Their Flying Machines". They fly around the crowded airspace in the South of England in LAA aircraft, non radio, non transponder, with minimal nav equipment, the bare minimum rating on their licence and fly 20 hours or less per year telling us how it is their right to fly this way and no one can make them do anything different.

Brendan, I'm glad you are there to fish them out.

Next year - Lerwick, Vagar (Faroes), Hofn (Iceland), Reykjavik. All VFR under FL55 to stay out of the Oceanic class A.

 

[brendan_jackman]

Re: Flying over water - Does this bother you?

Your spot on Lawrence.
Know who maintains your machine and dont skimp, after that you are really cutting down on the likelyhood of an incident!
You do realise when you get to Iceland youve already done the hard bit of getting to the US COG flyin!!

 

[Lawrence Rippon]

Re: Flying over water - Does this bother you?

Brendan, since posting that, I had some bad news on a blood test just a week before my CAA medical renewal next week. There may be a very nice just resprayed, well maintained and looked after 112B for sale in the UK, right in your price range, by the end of this month. Let me know if you are interested.

 

[painlesspotter]

Re: Flying over water - Does this bother you?

B--------bad news on a blood test----------.

Why would "bad blood" be a disqualifying issue? I got bad blood and medical renewals are more rigorous, but achievalble. Don't give up the ship too early. or prematurely!

 

[Lawrence Rippon]

Re: Flying over water - Does this bother you?

John, Unfortunately the rules here in the UK cover some different conditions to those in the FAA medical. I'll know for sure on the 16th when I have my bi-annual CAA medical, I'm working with the doctors to keep on the medication I am currently using which is acceptable, although they are at the limit of their usefulness, the next grade up is not acceptable to the CAA.