First I've seen ice in the wild . . .

[Americana_D]

My first experience with icing. I flew my routine mission to NE GA on Thursday from Central FL and picked up a layer of rime ice on the leading edges of the wings and on the windscreen during my descent. I couldn't discern any handling or performance difference. It wasn't unexpected (I was flying through a cloud layer with a 24 degree OAT), but it got my attention. Based on the weather at my destination, I figured the cloud layer would be 1000' thick. Turned out to be right at 3000' thick. That was unexpected.

 

[Pat]

Re: First I've seen ice in the wild . . .

A previous owner of a 112TCA, said he would limit the ice build up to 1/2" on the wings before he would worry and he had seen 3/4" without flight problems.
I never flew with him in ice and do not know how he measured the ice. He is a very exacting person so I have no reason not to trust what he said.
The most I have seen was some ice on the steps when I landed but not on the wings.

 

[marcelo67]

Re: First I've seen ice in the wild . . .

My flight last Sunday from KRDU to North Jersey I picked up ice as well....No difference in flight controls but did notice that the trim was hard to adjust (common problem when it get below freezing).

 

[nruzic]

Re: First I've seen ice in the wild . . .

Hi everyone please be careful the ice is a hazard to flight in many ways:
1 The ice amount alone is not the only variable to make it a worry
2 The ice buildup ruins the airfoil shape and greatly increases aerodynamic drag
3 Tail ice can change the handling characteristics

So please be careful and get out of icing conditions as soon as you can.
No panic use good judgement
Climb into clear air above & let it sublimate
Descent to where OAT is above freezing
Climb without high angles of attack so don't try max climb angle speed instead max rate of climb speed or a bit over it to stay safe.
But

 

[Lawrence Rippon]

Re: First I've seen ice in the wild . . .

We do get more than our fair share of ice over this side of the pond. Cloud flying is the norm for a large part of the year if you want to actually get anywhere.
The aerodynamics of our aircraft males ice build up less likely than say a PA28 and it can handle a good deal of build up when it happens.
I've encountered unintentional icing over the Alps and enroute to Scotland a few times and haven't lost a Knott although when chunks of ice come of off the prop and hit the windscreen it does concentrate the mind.
Because of the pointy granite below I always look for a layer or on top first, the aircraft de-ices very quickly once the temp rises just a couple of degrees above freezing. There are big holes in radar coverage across Europe so I wouldn't descend without a service.

 

[gmores]

Re: First I've seen ice in the wild . . .

My flight last Sunday from KRDU to North Jersey I picked up ice as well....No difference in flight controls but did notice that the trim was hard to adjust (common problem when it get below freezing).

Marcelo - those of us with the earlier serial numbers don't have the little fairing that covers the trim jackscrews. So the moisture and ice gets in there and freezes up.

If you search here you'll find some threads describing different lubricants that can help with this issue. Also, Aerofairings in Canada has those little fairings and it shouldn't be too much work to get your mechanic to sign off on installing a set.

 

[N4843W]

Re: First I've seen ice in the wild . . .

I don't recall who but one of our members reported some years back landing at Logan with 1" plus. My old USAF veteran flight instructor took me not long after I bought 43W nearly 15 years ago and we "messed around" in icing conditions when the temperature was right from about 7K to 10K but +3 at 5K and +7 at 3K and something around 12-15 at ground level, so he knew we could shed ice quickly as needed.

We loaded it up something over 3/4", maybe close to 1", a couple of times. I was kind of blown away but he was totally nonplussed. He taught me to keep speed up, move very slowly on the controls. He was trying to see if we got any compromised action on the elevator but did't find it. Lost some speed but handled well. It was a great experience to actually do that hand's on.

Living in the Great Lakes Ice Factory, I have had ice many, many times in 2500+ hours on the bird. I find up to 1/4" or a little more, you notice nothing. around 1/2" there is a slight sluggishness and I would keep your speed up (and I hope you have your pitot heat on.) Twice last winter I had to land with 1/2" plus, once descending through a totally unforecast layer on approach to Farmington, NM. It was getting dark and I was down to a 1 hour reserve so I wanted to land. Landed at about 90 knots. All was smooth. Got a lot of talk on the ramp the next morning, as it had stayed below freezing all night.

Then last year for Operation Good Cheer ... ATC had us strung out all the way back past Chatham, Ontario trying to get into Pontiac. Everyone was picking up ice ... it was ridiculous, and they were letting guys in from the North who had no icing issues and were over U.S. soil. I finally called in on behalf of the group and pleaded, "Unless you want 8 or 10 U.S. registry planes declaring an emergency and landing in Canada, you need to move us right away." I was about to change my destination to Detroit City (imagine the mess if 10 planes had to do that at once) when they finally began moving us back toward Pontiac. Coming in, PTK tower asked if I could slow my approach ... "Unable due to icing." My SIC who was meeting me there walked up to the bird and went, "Holy *bleep**bleep**bleep**bleep*!" It was about 3/4" mixed.

I am telling you this NOT to encourage you to do anything other than first avoid icing, and second to get out of it immediately if encountered. But it is good to know that this bird will handle 1/2" to 3/4" well and many of us had had an inch. So you don't need to panic. Having said on that, we will never forget our COG friend who went in Day after Christmas about 10 or 12 years ago, in Tennessee. Landed in a guy's front yard coming in for fuel. That was an incredibly sad, and totally unnecessary accident. I specifically explained to him on email the night before why he could NOT go because he would have to come down for fuel in the middle of a massive icing band. He thought he could make warmer air in Georgia but the winds clearly were not going to support that. He said he would not go. Next morning, when I saw him up on FlightAware.com, then checked the weather, I just felt sick. FOUR planes went down in the Appalachians that day ... besides the Commander, there was a Bonanza, and a Navajo with de-ice flying medical rescue. I cannot recall the 4th right now. All due to icing. It was insane. There were pictures of huge sheets of clear ice that had fractured off the Commander, and looked to me at least 1.5", maybe 2" thick. He also had 4 passengers and luggage for a trip to Florida.

Two flight instructors I know, one my old Military guy and the other the President off the Michigan FAAST team, but had charters to the south scheduled that day in planes with de-ice, one Baron and one C421. Both cancelled.

The next day was forecast to be severe clear. And so it was.

Be careful out there.

 

[George1]

Re: First I've seen ice in the wild . . .

Scott,

He was my neighbor in Aero Acres FD88. He and his Mother died that day. The sad part was he did not have to be back to work for several days after.

 

[N4843W]

Re: First I've seen ice in the wild . . .

The saddest part of all that I recall ... they had a young family friend with them. Seems to me he was 20 or 21 and the story was he had had some trouble. During the flight on top over the deck at altitude, he messaged his mom about how beautiful the sun was and he felt that his life was coming together finally. It was very positive and hopeful. As I recall, he survived but was paralyzed. His wife also survived with very serious injuries. I often wonder how they are doing.

 

[Keezdisease]

Re: First I've seen ice in the wild . . .

Am I the only one thinking to myself that " messing around in ice" and flying into any ice whatsoever is comparable to playing Russian Roulette???? The weatherman can't get a snow or rain forecast and a few on here are "playing in light ice as well as heavy. One time the weather was an hour off in his timeframe and I picked up light icing, never never never again, it's borderline of insane.

 

[Alex]

Re: First I've seen ice in the wild . . .

Am I the only one thinking to myself that " messing around in ice" and flying into any ice whatsoever is comparable to playing Russian Roulette???? .

No you are not the only one, everyone here thinks the same. What is been said here is: Our airplanes can handle reasonably well up to about 0.5 inches. Should you accidentally find yourself in an icy situation, don't panic just fly out of it as soon as possible before conditions get worse.

 

[plight]

Re: First I've seen ice in the wild . . .

Well said Scott.

 

[N4843W]

Re: First I've seen ice in the wild . . .

Chris, your header does not say where you are from, what you fly, etc. (fix that!) Those of us in the Great Lakes States, have a problem in that from November through March, often in April, we will get a "forecast icing" at least 4 days out of 7, and often 5 or 6. And last year from late October through mid-December, I got ice on five flights where it was NOT forecast! It was a weird period. Never seen that before or after. (That included my Farmington MO and Operation Good Cheer flights.)

You fly around it long enough and you start to develop a sense of howheavy and serious it is. You look at the forecast, the maps, study the pireps, then if you decide you can go, you watch the temps, airspeed, pitot heat like a hawk. Also know exactly where the temp layers are because it is not unusual to be warmer above. Up here during winter, we often have these 1,000 to 2,000 foot layers that you can climb through or decend very quickly. You make calls to ATC or even other planes and find out who has gone through, where, and how long ago. So if you have a 1,000' layer with a couple reports of "light rime" you can safely get through that. Not a problem. If it was a 3,000 or 4,000 foot layer then no, I will not go there.

The thing that kills a lot of pilots is they do not notice they are in a warmer layer above, then have to descend through a layer into colder temps below. I have cancelled flights when I saw that situation, and have diverted several times when an inversion like that developed at a destination.

The rule is, yes, stay the hell out of ice, just like convective activity. But just like a line of cells, sometimes there are ways to get around it. Many, many times I have flown VFR underneath a 3,000 foot layer for 30 miles or even an hour in the winter, to get to where I can safely climb up.

It's about knowing what you can personally handle and cope with, and what your airplane can handle.

Well, it just occurred to me that I am talking the 114 here. I would be more conservative with a 112 for sure. So since I consider myself "quite conservative" ... I guess in a 112 I would be "extremely conservative."

 

[gmores]

Re: First I've seen ice in the wild . . .

Good advice on being especially conservative with a 112 and ice. Your available power to climb above it is modest to start with.

 

[rob egph]

Re: First I've seen ice in the wild . . .

My experience has been the same that ice seems to be no problem up to half and inch or so. With that weight the plane seems still able to climb at 150 - 200 feet a minute above 8000' and I distinctly remember one icy day climbing to FL120 and minus 18 C but I made the mistake of not selecting full cabin heat as I climbed up and up to try to get into clear air. By the time I was at cruise altitude I could not get any hot air into the cabin as the system seemed frozen. Never did that again. It was back to normal on the ground again. After descent, approach, landing and taxiing in to park there was still 3 or 4 mm ice wrapped around the wing leading edges. I am very curious about how the tail looks at those times and I try not to move the controls suddenly.

 

[nruzic]

Re: First I've seen ice in the wild . . .

Rob the weight of the ice is not much of a problem -
the drag caused by ice changing your streamline aerodynamic shape into a draggy unstreamlined shape is the danger.

e.g. the Cdo (profile drag coefficient)typically for the Coimmander wing NACA 6 Series airfoil is 0.040. Now with mixed icing with horn like protrusions the Cdo would double or more. This high Cdo is the cause of loss of climb rate and of a higher stall speed.

The tail too will have similar problems keeping in mind that in most cg configurations the Tail lift is downwards. So high angle of attack for the tail means -12* or so.

The wt. gain is not much because notice that ice forms mostly at the wing leading edge and perhaps back about 5% of the wing chord. It doesn't form on the rest of the wing chord because the water droplets impingement can only be in the 1st 10% or so of the wing chord, beyond that the water droplets are not impinging onto the surface. The airlines use bleed air from their engines to heat the wing & tail leading edges but only do this for teh 1st 5% of teh wing chord. Ditto de-icing boots.

 

[WXBEE]

Re: First I've seen ice in the wild . . .

Started picking some up, climbed out of it. Stayed above it all the way to YIP where it was clear. She held alt and airspeed fine.

 

[rob egph]

Re: First I've seen ice in the wild . . .

Hi Sid,
So how effective are the de-ice foils, as in how fast a buildup will they stop;light, or moderate? Has anyone had the retrofitted?
I have to say I enjoyed that magical moment when you start to descend. The ice flies off like silvery fish scattering from the prop