• Welcome to the new Commander Owners Group Forums. Please bear with us as the kinks are worked out and things are tweaked. If you have any questions or issues with the new platform, please post them here.

FAA & BMI: MUCH AD0-doo about nothing

Re: FAA & BMI: MUCH AD0-doo about nothing

Ah to be young, healthy, and naive again.

Being a student pilot, I can't really say how most pilots feel about the FAA in general (as opposed to just some of their idiotic and ill-conceived rule-making policies). I personally believe it would be a nightmare in the skies without them to oversee things. However I've worked in the Nuclear industry for my entire life, and I can tell you first hand that MOST of the rules made by a government bureaucracy don't help, and can actually hinder safe operations. When you've got to jump through hoops with government policies that actually distract you from operating safely without really helping you at all, then someone up there didn't do their job right. Unfortunately, you can't tell them that, because they're always right.

I'm with Joel in wishing you never experience this first hand when you get older, but knowing the government in general, I don't think that's very likely.
 
Re: FAA & BMI: MUCH AD0-doo about nothing

I like many, get to go through the medical process every year. I got reissued in July and like last year asked for one of the requirements (CT scan) to be removed. The need or lack of has been documented for over 10 years. So now 5 months later the letter comes, denied the request and pulled the medical. I asked last year and it only took 3 months for the same thing to happen. I guess they are more behind now from the sequestration nonsense.

I can get a reissue but I am down until the AME can see me and redo a CT etc. When I die I will be glowing with radiation.

I questioned a govt agency for a "need for a test" and was shown the back of the hand. They have the power and sometimes that power gets abused.
 
Re: FAA & BMI: MUCH AD0-doo about nothing

Tyler, you mad a very strong point, for which you will mostly get a lot of grief here for. I have been through as much medical BS with the FAA as anyone here, having had 14 eye surgeries and a kidney transplant. Yes, they can be a pain in the butt. But generally speaking, they can be managed. They are people who believe they are doing the right thing, however misguided they sometimes are. I know there are painful exceptions.
 
Re: FAA & BMI: MUCH AD0-doo about nothing

Tyler; here's an example of FAA hyjinks in your neck of the woods. Mark George, a DPE in Allentown/Pocono mountain area in PA got carried away demonstrating his side slip recovery method after a Checkride and word got back to the FAA. They decided in their infinite wisdom to re-test all 330 candidates mark George tested since 2008 when he got his commission. All on the back of one infraction. It never occurred to them to interview folks first and establish a pattern. Now, how many of those do you think are current and will bother to retest? We're all trying to grow the pilot population while the "bright"folks at the FAA continue to impress with their dedication to the opposite in the name of rules for the sake of it. No statistical justification needed; after all we're paying
 
Re: FAA & BMI: MUCH AD0-doo about nothing

Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying there aren't problems with the current system, or that there aren't people within the FAA that cause unnecessary problems due to a lack of common sense or outright ill intent.

Nor do I ever hope to have to deal with a complicated medical situation or enforcement action. And Joel- I agree 100%- no major rule change should be able to be made in this fashion without the usual procedures being followed.

That said, my point still stands- No other major hobby/activity/sport has such a culture of distain towards its regulating body; and that culture is a a turnoff to would-be pilots.

Not only that, but I wouldn't be surprised if that culture also caused a much more adversarial relationship within the FAA towards pilots, making the situation worse.
 
Re: FAA & BMI: MUCH AD0-doo about nothing

Tyler, If you investigate a bit you'll find that there are many activities/hobbies that have a regulatory agency with which they must deal. Unfortunately, you will find their relationship is often adversarial much like GA and the FAA. I think most people on this board do not favor getting completely rid of the FAA, but, THAT being said I think what we would like is a common sense approach to the regulatory issues that we face and not a "one size fits all" solution that most of these agencies like to impose because it's easier for them.
 
Re: FAA & BMI: MUCH AD0-doo about nothing

Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying there aren't problems with the current system, or that there aren't people within the FAA that cause unnecessary problems due to a lack of common sense or outright ill intent.



Nor do I ever hope to have to deal with a complicated medical situation or enforcement action. And Joel- I agree 100%- no major rule change should be able to be made in this fashion without the usual procedures being followed.



That said, my point still stands- No other major hobby/activity/sport has such a culture of distain towards its regulating body; and that culture is a a turnoff to would-be pilots.



Not only that, but I wouldn't be surprised if that culture also caused a much more adversarial relationship within the FAA towards pilots, making the situation worse.


Perhaps painting the situation with too broad a brush...? COG was non-confrontational with the FAA during the elevator spar issue and the FAA personnel involved were collaborative with COG in finding acceptable means to accomplish the inspections. There was a good bit of give and take and discussion to reach a final rule. A great example of worthy compromise on details to reach a defined ultimate objective.

That being said, when you encounter a regulatory clown like the FAA inspector that ramped and red tag grounded a local twin flying Q-tip props for "an obvious prop strike" and wouldn't budge until his supervisor was called to the field, it builds a case for wariness about arbitrary regulatory decisions by made individuals perhaps not qualified to make them.

Case in point with the apnea brouhaha. This is clearly not an emergency situation requiring immediate remedy. There is a rule making protocol in place for a reason, hopefully resulting in the former type of process being pursued instead of the latter. Shame the medical division administrator did not see fit to use the procedure. Would have saved all parties a great deal of wasted time and aggravation. Also would have not unnecessarily fueled the adversarial fire. We can do better. Hopefully a lesson learned.
 
Re: FAA & BMI: MUCH AD0-doo about nothing

Martha Lunken, Former FAA employee for years, made a scary observation in her column this month in FLYING mag. She said that in 1990, there where 12 inspectors at the Cinci FSDO. Today, with FEWER GA operations in the area, there are SIXTY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Good God. Now, you know all those people NEED to find work to do to justify staying on the job.

That scares me far far more than the Sleep Apnea Brouhaha. I still think 99.9% of all people with a BMI of 40+, however measured, are already going to be doing extra tests and such. And few would be able to get in a plane anyway. But FIVE times the inspectors, for less operations? That is nothing but trouble.
 
Re: FAA & BMI: MUCH AD0-doo about nothing

Perhaps painting the situation with too broad a brush...? COG was non-confrontational with the FAA during the elevator spar issue and the FAA personnel involved were collaborative with COG in finding acceptable means to accomplish the inspections. There was a good bit of give and take and discussion to reach a final rule. A great example of worthy compromise on details to reach a defined ultimate objective.

That being said, when you encounter a regulatory clown like the FAA inspector that ramped and red tag grounded a local twin flying Q-tip props for "an obvious prop strike" and wouldn't budge until his supervisor was called to the field, it builds a case for wariness about arbitrary regulatory decisions by made individuals perhaps not qualified to make them.

Case in point with the apnea brouhaha. This is clearly not an emergency situation requiring immediate remedy. There is a rule making protocol in place for a reason, hopefully resulting in the former type of process being pursued instead of the latter. Shame the medical division administrator did not see fit to use the procedure. Would have saved all parties a great deal of wasted time and aggravation. Also would have not unnecessarily fueled the adversarial fire. We can do better. Hopefully a lesson learned.


It is a bit of a broad brush, and I'm not talking specifically about this group, just what I've observed in general. I mean the fact that most of the major aviation retailers sell the "FAA: We're not happy until you're not happy" shirts is a pretty good indication.
Just think of the mixed message student pilots get- personal minimums, legal doesn't mean safe, etc. contradicted by the idea that the FAA just dreams up silly rules to make your life harder. There are only three outcomes of that culture conflict, and two of them are bad. That's all I'm saying.


To your point, there has been great collaboration with the FAA with COG on the Elevator Spar issue and the AMOC. The Part 23 reform law that just passed was a collaboration between the the FAA, industry, orgs like AOPA, and pilots. Ditto for LSA, and the potential driver's license VFR 3rd class medical.
I think we need more of that.
 
Re: FAA & BMI: MUCH AD0-doo about nothing

Agreed.
 
Re: FAA & BMI: MUCH AD0-doo about nothing

Martha Lunken, Former FAA employee for years, made a scary observation in her column this month in FLYING mag. She said that in 1990, there where 12 inspectors at the Cinci FSDO. Today, with FEWER GA operations in the area, there are SIXTY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Good God. Now, you know all those people NEED to find work to do to justify staying on the job.

That scares me far far more than the Sleep Apnea Brouhaha. I still think 99.9% of all people with a BMI of 40+, however measured, are already going to be doing extra tests and such. And few would be able to get in a plane anyway. But FIVE times the inspectors, for less operations? That is nothing but trouble.

Welcome to "Real-Ville" Scott!:eek:
 
Re: FAA & BMI: MUCH AD0-doo about nothing

BTW, I was thinking about Martha Lunken, too when this issue popped up. I'm old enough to remember when the FAA was more compliant with their mandate to "promote" aviation. I love Martha's old-days perspective when we seemed to have common goals; more and better pilots and better safety rather than the current us vs. them; "comply or die" policy.

I would love to debate the merits of acquiescing to our tyrannical bureaucratic overlords, but I would rather do that with you over a plate of runny eggs at Jackson sometime.

May we do that even though I now fly a lesser airplane?:confused:
 
Re: FAA & BMI: MUCH AD0-doo about nothing

Scott, relatively speaking the Feds have announced that a BMI of 40 is the starting point. AVWEB, among others have stated that after 40 is complete then they will move on to 30, and eventually almost all pilots will at some point be a target.

Remember that a BMI of 18-25 is considered normal. Only the smallest or skinniest of pilots will fit into this category.
Good Day, stop14
 
Re: FAA & BMI: MUCH AD0-doo about nothing

While this is certainly an advocacy piece from ANN, it is related to the FAA debate...:rolleyes:




Happy New Year! Your Airplane May Be Grounded

Beware -- Your FAA Has Done It Again! Awww… C’mon Man!

By Bruce Brandon, Atty, ANN Aero-Legal Specialist

You can’t make this stuff up.



There are hundreds (perhaps over a thousand) airplanes that will be grounded on January 1, 2014.

Why?

The FAA won’t have completed the paperwork for a large block of airplanes that are queued for re-registration.

You will recall that the FAA mandated re-registration of all civil aircraft started in 2010 under the authority of 49 USC § 44101 et. al. The FAA, over objections, imposed 14 CFR § 47.40 that requires a 3 year re-registration. So far, it’s a mandate making GA more of a hassle -- but manageable -- only if FAA does its job (always a questionable proposition).

Now the rub.

FAA, who points the finger to the recent government shut down that paid the FAA employees but wouldn’t let them work, as to why it is behind in processing the re-registrations. Really?

The delay means that hundreds, if not a thousand or more, aircraft will be grounded as of January 1, 2014 because the FAA hasn’t done its job.

Amazing isn’t it, most professions have to get the job done regardless of external factors. Why doesn’t the FAA respond to questions asking why this happened, as I had to, while a cadet at the US Air Force Academy. The answer to a “why question” was “no excuse sir!” Instead, the FAA has fumbled the ball and blames others. Now one could, perhaps, be forgiving of the tardy reregistration done by the FAA, if the FAA were to use its extremely broad discretionary powers to mitigate the harm. It could simply extend the registration on those aircraft whose registration expires on December 31, 2013 by 30-60 days or until the FAA completes the job.



It would be a simple solution to a problem the FAA unilaterally created with its re-registration regulation -- and its failure.

The FAA could do this but, so far, has not.

Instead, it has opted to inflict pain, cost, and inconvenience on GA owners who are attempting to comply with a questionable regulation thrust upon them and have no recourse in making the FAA to do the right thing. As young officers in the military, one of our irreverent remarks to senior officers (only mentally – never verbally) was “Colonel, you have me confused with someone who cares about your problem”.

I think that most of the GA population feels that the FAA has the same attitude; we have them confused with someone who cares.

For those who are being innocently punished by the FAA, it is strongly suggested that, even though the FAA is the one failing to timely register aircraft, causing great inconvenience and cost to innocent parties and failing to mitigate the impact, that you don’t fly until your airplane is reregistered.



This same FAA, the one that requires you to obey its rules -- even when it fails to deliver what is required of them -- will punish you. (Of course, they are never punished for their failures.)

Not only will the FAA punish you, your state government may very well also punish you.

What can they do to you?

First, in some states, flying an airplane that isn’t registered is a crime, even a felony. To my knowledge, FAA’s incompetence isn’t mentioned in any of the criminal statutes excusing the flying of an unregistered airplane. The FAA will also punish you.

14 CFR § 47.3 states “(b) No person may operate an aircraft that is eligible for registration under 49 U.S.C. 44101-44104, unless the aircraft--

(1) Has been registered by its owner;

14 CFR § 91.203 also requires that you have on board “an effective U.S. registration certificate…”

You can’t have one until the FAA issues it. The Sanction Guidance table for the FAA (similar to sentencing guidelines) calls for a 30-90 day suspension of your pilot’s certificate and/or the maximum civil penalty of $10,000 for each flight in which the aircraft is not registered.

[Still… There is no sanction for the FAA not doing its job].



It is important to remember, that if your airplane’s registration expires December 31, 2103, your airplane is not registered after that -- until the FAA does its job!

Another serious consequence of an unregistered aircraft is that your insurance may be invalid.

Check your policy.

Bottom line, as an airman, this FAA act of incompetence is “a harm without remedy”. Now, don’t think that there is fairness in this matter. There is no “fair for the goose, fair for the gander” when it comes to the FAA. You are held to a much higher standard by the FAA, than the FAA requires of itself. While they aren’t punished for their incompetence, they will punish you if you don’t follow the rules, regulations and law.

Have a happy holiday -- the New Year may be a bear.

The FAA is still in charge. Awww, C’mon Man!
 
Re: FAA & BMI: MUCH AD0-doo about nothing

BTW, I was thinking about Martha Lunken, too when this issue popped up. I'm old enough to remember when the FAA was more compliant with their mandate to "promote" aviation. I love Martha's old-days perspective when we seemed to have common goals; more and better pilots and better safety rather than the current us vs. them; "comply or die" policy.

I would love to debate the merits of acquiescing to our tyrannical bureaucratic overlords, but I would rather do that with you over a plate of runny eggs at Jackson sometime.

May we do that even though I now fly a lesser airplane?:confused:

Whoa ... where did you ever come up with the idea that any of us are in favor for "acquiescing to our tyrannical bureaucratic overlords?" That is so much the problem with trying to discuss anything these days. Everyone is so damn polarized. if you ever challenge anyone on any point, then you must be lock, stock and barrel with the other (bad) guys. All my right-wing pals (like the vast majority here) think I am a flamin-freakin-liberal because I do not buy into the right wing party line. But my liberal friends, including wife and my daughter, think I am a right-wing-reactionary conservative because I bitch so much about the left-wingers. Geeeeeeez. So i raise the point that maybe the Sleep Apnea is not a big concern for 99.9% of us and suddenly I am in favor of acquiescing to bureaucratic tyrants! Remember, I personally had to battle the FAA to get my license back. I am about the last person anyone has to invite to the real-world, but thanks for your concern.
 
Re: FAA & BMI: MUCH AD0-doo about nothing

Advocacy piece is right, Bill. I just called the AOPA pilot services line to make sure I was all good. The guy was very helpful and said they are not getting phone calls on this issue from pilots. He emailed me a couple of links asking that I post them and suggest everyone take a look to confirm their own due dates.

Hi Scott, Thanks for contacting AOPA's Pilot Information Center. Here is a link to the Aircraft Registry page that lists the date of the paperwork they’re processing; http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_registry/ . And here is the link to the registration FAQ; http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certifi...ication/aircraft_registry/reregistration_faq/ . The FAQ does include the time table for re-registrations. I always encourage everyone to check the address associated with their aircraft registrations to ensure that they receive the registration notices when they’re sent. Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any other concerns or questions. Safe Flying,

Paul Feldmeyer | Pilot Information Center
Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association
Paul.Feldmeyer@aopa.org
800-872-2672 | www.aopa.org


First, just open that first link, pp in your N number, and check your registration status. You will find out when yours is due, and if you have an application in, the status.

On the second link, you'll see that the only way you are needing help with this is if you were seriously delinquent in filing your registration, and forking over the whopping $5 fee. If anyone is grounded, it is because they had a non-current address and have not read a single aviation publication or website, because this thing has been publicized ad-nauseum. According to the AOPA guy, the FAA has actually processed applications received through November 15, a full 15 weeks past the due date of August 1 due date, in view of the sequester stuff. (you can see that date when the first link opens.) So they have actually given people every consideration ... in this case.

OK, there I go again, siding with the tyrannical bureaucrats. But maybe we'd win more battles, if we were better at picking our battles?




While this is certainly an advocacy piece from ANN, it is related to the FAA debate...:rolleyes:




Happy New Year! Your Airplane May Be Grounded

Beware -- Your FAA Has Done It Again! Awww… C’mon Man!

By Bruce Brandon, Atty, ANN Aero-Legal Specialist

You can’t make this stuff up.



There are hundreds (perhaps over a thousand) airplanes that will be grounded on January 1, 2014.

Why?

The FAA won’t have completed the paperwork for a large block of airplanes that are queued for re-registration.

You will recall that the FAA mandated re-registration of all civil aircraft started in 2010 under the authority of 49 USC § 44101 et. al. The FAA, over objections, imposed 14 CFR § 47.40 that requires a 3 year re-registration. So far, it’s a mandate making GA more of a hassle -- but manageable -- only if FAA does its job (always a questionable proposition).

Now the rub.

FAA, who points the finger to the recent government shut down that paid the FAA employees but wouldn’t let them work, as to why it is behind in processing the re-registrations. Really?

The delay means that hundreds, if not a thousand or more, aircraft will be grounded as of January 1, 2014 because the FAA hasn’t done its job.

Amazing isn’t it, most professions have to get the job done regardless of external factors. Why doesn’t the FAA respond to questions asking why this happened, as I had to, while a cadet at the US Air Force Academy. The answer to a “why question” was “no excuse sir!” Instead, the FAA has fumbled the ball and blames others. Now one could, perhaps, be forgiving of the tardy reregistration done by the FAA, if the FAA were to use its extremely broad discretionary powers to mitigate the harm. It could simply extend the registration on those aircraft whose registration expires on December 31, 2013 by 30-60 days or until the FAA completes the job.



It would be a simple solution to a problem the FAA unilaterally created with its re-registration regulation -- and its failure.

The FAA could do this but, so far, has not.

Instead, it has opted to inflict pain, cost, and inconvenience on GA owners who are attempting to comply with a questionable regulation thrust upon them and have no recourse in making the FAA to do the right thing. As young officers in the military, one of our irreverent remarks to senior officers (only mentally – never verbally) was “Colonel, you have me confused with someone who cares about your problem”.

I think that most of the GA population feels that the FAA has the same attitude; we have them confused with someone who cares.

For those who are being innocently punished by the FAA, it is strongly suggested that, even though the FAA is the one failing to timely register aircraft, causing great inconvenience and cost to innocent parties and failing to mitigate the impact, that you don’t fly until your airplane is reregistered.



This same FAA, the one that requires you to obey its rules -- even when it fails to deliver what is required of them -- will punish you. (Of course, they are never punished for their failures.)

Not only will the FAA punish you, your state government may very well also punish you.

What can they do to you?

First, in some states, flying an airplane that isn’t registered is a crime, even a felony. To my knowledge, FAA’s incompetence isn’t mentioned in any of the criminal statutes excusing the flying of an unregistered airplane. The FAA will also punish you.

14 CFR § 47.3 states “(b) No person may operate an aircraft that is eligible for registration under 49 U.S.C. 44101-44104, unless the aircraft--

(1) Has been registered by its owner;

14 CFR § 91.203 also requires that you have on board “an effective U.S. registration certificate…”

You can’t have one until the FAA issues it. The Sanction Guidance table for the FAA (similar to sentencing guidelines) calls for a 30-90 day suspension of your pilot’s certificate and/or the maximum civil penalty of $10,000 for each flight in which the aircraft is not registered.

[Still… There is no sanction for the FAA not doing its job].



It is important to remember, that if your airplane’s registration expires December 31, 2103, your airplane is not registered after that -- until the FAA does its job!

Another serious consequence of an unregistered aircraft is that your insurance may be invalid.

Check your policy.

Bottom line, as an airman, this FAA act of incompetence is “a harm without remedy”. Now, don’t think that there is fairness in this matter. There is no “fair for the goose, fair for the gander” when it comes to the FAA. You are held to a much higher standard by the FAA, than the FAA requires of itself. While they aren’t punished for their incompetence, they will punish you if you don’t follow the rules, regulations and law.

Have a happy holiday -- the New Year may be a bear.

The FAA is still in charge. Awww, C’mon Man!
 
Last edited:
Re: FAA & BMI: MUCH AD0-doo about nothing

Scott, relatively speaking the Feds have announced that a BMI of 40 is the starting point. AVWEB, among others have stated that after 40 is complete then they will move on to 30, and eventually almost all pilots will at some point be a target.

Remember that a BMI of 18-25 is considered normal. Only the smallest or skinniest of pilots will fit into this category.
Good Day, stop14

I said at the beginning that this would not happen ... and it has not, and will not. I never saw that Doc say anything about a BMI of 30. I saw that he said "after 40, we'd look at 35." But perhaps I missed it.

Whatever, all the reports are the FAA has backed off.

p.s. at 6'4", I would have to gain 135 lbs. to have a BMI of 40. At 6'4" and 330 lbs., I would not be able to get into my Commander or about any other Single.
 
Re: FAA & BMI: MUCH AD0-doo about nothing

Scott,

First I want to tell you that one of my very best friends is the first liver transplant recipient ever to be issued a First Class medical and still has his medical so I am very aware what you have gone through to get and keep yours.

Hopefully I wont be getting in your gunsights, but I just did my every 6 month Class 1 recently and had to do a new test Ive NEVER done before in the last 33 years of taking medicals for my childhood asthma I reported when I was 15 years old. My AME and I talked about this test and 11 other conditions that the FAA has now decided (as of June 14, 2013 according to the memo he showed me) that they will be starting. Then he brought up this BMI test. He showed me the memo from the Feds that said they are to stand down on this temporarily but they will be resuming the push later. According to my union and my AME who heard it on a FAA AME conference call in October, the FAA wishes to test down to a BMI of 25 eventually.

He said that there was a huge audit done in the spring in the FAA Aeromedical division on ways to increase productivity and reduce paperwork delays (a good thing), but as a result of this audit they found there are long standing rules about these 12 conditions (asthma among others) that require further testing and proof they do not longer exist. Not new rules, just things that have been there for along time but not enforced. So guess what? As of June 14. 2013, they have to be. He showed me the list of the 12 and I don't remember then all. Each condition has a one to three page "worksheet" the Dr must fill out and submit.

So after 35 years of not having any symptoms or attacks, I now have to prove (at a cost of $145 per visit) that I don't have my childhood asthma anymore. My FAA dr wrote a letter to the FAA (I saw it) that told them he has been my AME for 12 years and I do volunteer firefighting on the side and participate in a stairclimb event climbing 74 floors wearing full turnout gear weighing 75 pounds breathing air out of a SCBA so he feels my childhood asthma is under control. My BP is so low I have to run around the block of his office twice to get my heart rate HIGH enough to meet the FAA mins. Guess what? They wrote him a letter back that said all future visits for any Class of medical the tests for asthma will still be required. Brilliant.

I know you battled the FAA for many serious issues and am glad you got your medical, but there ALOT of idiots there. I do not believe the BMI issue is over after what I read and heard from my Dr and union. The political pressure has slowed it for now and they are deciding if it has to go the NPRM or they can just do it, but I think its coming.

I guess the point of all this is that hopefully those with common sense (AOPA, ALPA, etc) can convince those without it (FAA) to focus one those that need TREATMENT rather than just lump everyone in a category and require it. (I use my own childhood asthma issue as the perfect example).

Just my 2 cents

Tim
(Recovering Childhood asthmatic who now is a threat to air safety)
 
Re: FAA & BMI: MUCH AD0-doo about nothing

PS Scott. If I can ever get to a COG Fly-in, Ill RUN to the bar and back to buy the first round of beers just to prove I don't have asthma in case there are FAA spies there.

:)

Tim
 
Back
Top