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114B and 115 - crosswind control and side slip handling while landing; yawing in flight

Max

Max

New member
Anacortes, WA
Greetings all,

New member here. I have been looking at Trinidad GT's with serious buying intention. Then, I began to read about Commanders and I like what I'm learning about them. I do realize Commanders may be a bit slower, but the comfort factor is more important to my mission. I am quite happy trading off an 8% time differential (Trinidad) for the greater comfort x ctry.

There are a couple of questions for which I have not been able to find consistent answers. If anyone cares to provide me with feedback, I would be most appreciative! I don't see any deal killers yet (like I found with the abysmal mid-air breakups and fatal accident rates of Piper PA 32's & Malibu's). Other than trying to get to the truth about the following items, the Commander seems to be a fabulous x ctry cruiser to me!

These may be opinions of a few, or they may be an accurate overall representation, I'm not sure..., which is why I would welcome the truth from actual COG members. I've read that:
1. due to an "undersized tail", crosswind control on landings are "more difficult than with most of its peers";
2. there is insufficient rudder for an adequate sideslip in a crosswind landing without crabbing;
3. complaints of a tail waggle in turbulence;
4. due to mid-tail location of the stabilizer, take off is not as fluid as with "its peers", and landings are a bit hotter than "its peers" (altho the VS1 and Vso speeds do not strike me as excessive);
5. short field take offs and landings are more difficult than with "its peers";
6. yawing occurs due to the landing gear deploying one leg at a time;
7. density altitude performance is horrible

Thanks for any and all for your insights from actual experience.

Max
 
Max, it sounds like you need to find a Commander 114 or 115, close to your location and go for a ride......
 
HI Max and welcome to the group!
I think perhaps the best thing you could do would be to simply get in a Commander and fly it..
These ships fly wonderfully and make great Instrument Platforms.
Let the group know where you are located..I'm sure there's one not far from you.
Good luck on your search.
 
Hello Bill and David!

Great advice from both of you, indeed. If all goes well, I will be doing just that in about two weeks. I have not gotten familiar enough with the cog website yet to search owners by geographic location. But, to your point Bill, I am located in Anacortes, Washington. Thanks very much to you both for taking the time to respond.
Eric McGrew
Anacortes, WA
 
I have had my 114B for about 4 years, so I will give you my take on the questions - BUT - fly in one yourself to make up your own mind....

1. I have definitely not noticed any problem in crosswind landings. I can't remember the last time that I had any trouble getting mine down in some pretty good Texas crosswinds.
2. I disagree. I love to slideslip. The Commander does this just fine. I had not heard this one so I have never hesitated to put mine in a slideslip on final.
3. Have not noticed this one either. The Commander is a great airplane in turbulance.
4. Some truth to takeoffs. You just learn to gently pull back and let it fly off when it wants to. Landings are not "hotter" than say a Bonanza. I have flown both.
5. Not the best compared to a 182 or a Bonanza, but I have never hesitated to take off (or land) on 2300' runway at my home airport.
6. Certainly never noticed this.
7. Well, you are dealing with a NA engine on a 114B, so yes, high DA presents some issues, but nothing that can't be handled. I flew into Cheyenne WY this summer and did not have any issues on a 9000+ DA day on takeoff. Of course I did not take off with a full load of fuel, but still 50 gallons. I like the IO-540 simply because it is near bulletproof - it is de rated to 260 hp so really doesn't work hard. In your area, maybe you might need a turbo (114TC), but for my infrequent trips to Colorado and Wyoming I don't want the extra maintenance expenses of a turbocharger.
 
Hello Stephen,
Thank you so much for your thorough and informative response. I deeply appreciate your willingness to share your first hand experience, which I obviously value much greater than random reviews posted here and there. You have most certainly alleviated any minor concerns I had. I plan to experience a commander for myself in a couple of weeks. Needless to say, I am really looking forward to it!
All the best,
Eric McGrew
 
Hi Eric,

As a fairly new owner of a 114, I will give my thoughts. I have put 50+ hours on mine since May and came from Cessna's and Pipers.

1. I heard the stories about crosswind prior to purchase of mine but honestly have no concerns what so ever. I carry a little more speed and only 10 degrees flaps and feel quite comfortable. The platform is very stable. My home airport has a 7,500 ft runway but I have also put it in some short and narrow patches with bad rotor from tree lines with no issue at all.

2. I use both a slip or a crab depending on the field I am going into. The extra speed helps with the small size of the rudder.

3. Have not experienced this waggle or to the extent that it makes me uncomfortable.

4. On take off, I put in a little extra trim and she flies right off the runway with a little back pressure. Landings for me are 80-85 kts over the numbers and I find it settles quite nicely. The landing gear is amazing and touchdowns are "smooth as butter" as my kids like to say.

5. I would not say they are more difficult. Take offs are a little longer than some and need to compensate for a little more speed on landings. My bird does not have VG's but I understand they are quite an improvement for short field and I am looking at adding them.

6. I noticed a slight yaw when the gear comes down but it is only for a second or two. Certainly not uncomfortable if you expect it.

7. My field is only 720ft so no problem with that but as others have said, the 112 might be a little underpowered if not TC. Plenty of power in the 114.

I like you analyzed many different models but I can honestly say that I am beyond thrilled with my choice to go with a Commander. I absolutely love it plus it looks great sitting on the ramp.

Good luck!
 
Max,

Welcome to the group!

I've only had 42w for 7 years and about 600 hours. Prior to that, it was Arrows, Archers and various 152, 172, 182s.

Here are my answers to your points.

1. due to an "undersized tail", crosswind control on landings are "more difficult than with most of its peers";
No they are not. We have the power to carry speed and a certified crosswind landing component almost as high as the TB-20
I've landed with a crosswind component that 17 gusting to probably 22 - I was prepared to go around, but, the landing was smooth and easy - I prepared properly by carrying an extra 10 knots and only 10 degrees flaps.

2. there is insufficient rudder for an adequate sideslip in a crosswind landing without crabbing;
I regularly fly a cross controlled sideslip crosswind landing. My preferred approach if it's a long final is to crab to see how much correction is needed, then change to a slip and keep a steady/stable approach.

3. complaints of a tail waggle in turbulence;
None has bothered me or my passengers (and those were people, not puppies)

4. due to mid-tail location of the stabilizer, take off is not as fluid as with "its peers", and landings are a bit hotter than "its peers" (altho the VS1 and Vso speeds do not strike me as excessive);
You just have to fly this plane the way it was designed - don't expect it to fly like a ______ (cessna, mooney, comanche etc...) it's a Commander - my take off's are smooth and fluid for a Commander.

5. short field take offs and landings are more difficult than with "its peers";
Short field landings are cake - low speed flight controls are solid - I find that I don't have a pronounced nose high attitude like I would on a cessna, but, it's a Commander so to me - most of my approaches and landings seem more "flat" or fluid to use your term - not a huge change in pitch for flare/touch down. Short field take-offs at low elevations in a normally aspirated 114 are easy.

6. yawing occurs due to the landing gear deploying one leg at a time;
Well, yes, but only for a second and it's nothing significant or jarring. This plane likes a lot of right rudder on take off, that was one of my first impressions when I was doing the transition training when 42W adopted me (and my checkbook)

7. density altitude performance is horrible
Density altitude - you have to manage. I fly a normally aspirated 114 out of KCFO. Our field elevation is 5200' - on a hot summer day here in Colorado we can see 10k' density altitude. You either leave early, late, or lightly loaded - or plan a HUGE take off roll. I've taken 42w to Leadville (highest airport in North America) and our take off roll - would better be described as a high speed taxi that lumbered into the air. If you want performance in these environments, a turbo charged variant (TC or TC Normalized) is the answer.

From Denver I've taken 42w to 3 of our coasts (Atlantic - FL, Gulf Coast - S TX, and Pacific - NorCal) and had a blast. She isn't the fastest or most efficient. But, it's comfortable for me, my passengers and I can haul almost anything I want.

I've also flown a TB20. I looked and considered a TB20 very seriously too. A TB20 didn't work out - and then I got to fly one after I had 42w. I found that the TB20 had very crisp precise controls, thanks to the push rods. The TB20 sits lower and has a taper to the nose (so you have less leg room). The gull wing door and glass above create some heat and the cabin is more narrow. In flight with turbulence, I thought they were very similar.

Good luck in your hunt. Do your research and see what fits your needs better.

Dean
 
The only thing I partially agree with on this list is 3. There is definite Dutch Roll in turbulence, largely eliminated by use of the Yaw Damper.
 
My take is this...almost every airplane has a unique set of flying characteristics. Once you figure out all of your air speeds for take-off, climb, cruise, descent, approach, and landing; you'll be hard pressed to find a better flying airplane than the Commander.
 
sr30sb said:
My take is this...almost every airplane has a unique set of flying characteristics. Once you figure out all of your air speeds for take-off, climb, cruise, descent, approach, and landing; you'll be hard pressed to find a better flying airplane than the Commander.
Click to expand...
Hi Kevin, Based on all of the wonderful feedback I have received, it seems like you have summed all up very nicely here. Thanks very much for your perspective.
 
I have nothing further/constructive to add to the well articulated comments. I have flown our 112 with VGs for 10 years and it is such a stable platform that will never surprise you. I have flown 172s, PA28s and DA40s for 15 years before getting the Commander and I would not trade it for anything. The TB's are a very nice airplane and a formidable competitor. Just don't like the look of the panel....and thats about all I can say contrarily !
 
proppilot said:
I have nothing further/constructive to add to the well articulated comments. I have flown our 112 with VGs for 10 years and it is such a stable platform that will never surprise you. I have flown 172s, PA28s and DA40s for 15 years before getting the Commander and I would not trade it for anything. The TB's are a very nice airplane and a formidable competitor. Just don't like the look of the panel....and thats about all I can say contrarily !
Click to expand...

Hi Tony, thanks very much for your input.
Combined with the input from other members of the group, my concerns have been addressed. I really appreciate the input from everyone!
 
Eric, use the search function to find the many posts I have made on the questions you ask, based on my more than 4000 hours and 22 years flying the 114. None of these are real concerns if you learn the plane and how to fly it. Sorry I am on the run all week and cannot address in detail now, but I have in the bast. Judi can tell you I have helped quite a few new owners over the years by talking them through how to land in high gusty Xwinds. I have landed with 20-28 knots many, many times, with no problem, but you will NOT do that in a slip. If you don't find those posts, let me know. I will find them and repost.
 
Thanks very much for taking time to respond, Scott. I will search and see if I can find the posts you are referring to. Thanks very much!
 
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