112/B take off characteristics

[Perluc99]

Hi fellow pilots of Commander .I m very new in this forum because from a few days I m flying with a Commander 112B 200 HP . The aircraft is heavy and I noticed that on takeoff,you have to keep it very low otherwise it goes into stall.
Maybe I m not used to this Lind of wing because I m used to fly with RG Cuttlass or Pioer PA32 .
I can therefore ask you for advice how should I behave?..
Thanks

 

[jukelemon]

Re: 112/B take off characteristics

Hi Lucio.

Not sure what you mean by heavy... the Piper PA 32 is 800 lbs more in Gross Weight than our 112Bs But I think you mean how they feel i.e. a Commander feels nothing like a high wing Cessna in my opinion.

Putting that aside..maybe you are trying to rotate too early? My B will not lift in the slightest until it has reached ~73kias with 0* flaps and you need a lot more runway than maybe what you are used to needing with a Cessna?

After I bought my plane and in direct contrast with the 172 I trained in... a 3k foot runway was now small.

 

[atjudge]

Re: 112/B take off characteristics

Lucio, are you using flaps?? There is a big difference in feel between No flap TO and 10 degree flap TO.

 

[kgrant]

Re: 112/B take off characteristics

Indicated airspeed is your guide. Rotate at 70. Positive rate. Gear Up. Accelerate above 80. Bleed Flaps. If you are looking for a deck angle anywhere near your Cessna -- you'll sink into the weeds. Your Cessna experience is of little use transferring to a 112B. I've got the same wing on my TCA (and I still fly a 172M). Jason is right in that your airplane won't fly out of ground effect or establish a positive rate until you accelerate.

Take a look at the takeoff chart for 50-ft obstacle. When you factor in no wind and high DA's. You'll become well acquainted with your airport neighbors. k

 

[mcgrathm]

Re: 112/B take off characteristics

May want to check weight and balance as well.

 

[Lawrence Rippon]

Re: 112/B take off characteristics

I also have some experience of PA32s and they are a world apart on takeoff. Plus the extra 100 HP really gets them moving at a cost.

In all takeoff circumstances and on all surfaces I use 10 degrees of flap except very short field. Trim has to be at least half way between the takeoff marks and you need to get out of the piper and Cessna habit of flying everywhere four up with full tanks, unless two of them are children.
You will find it takes off by it’s self if it is trimmed correctly at around 73kts. You are looking for best rate of climb around 82kts but most of us cruise climb at whatever speed gets 400’-500’ per min around 90-100.
Initial climb at full throttle, gear away as soon as out of useable runway, flaps away when a good positive rate of climb is achieved and back to 25” 2500rpm and begin to lean back to around 11gph in the climb unless you are in a high density situation where you would start leaner as per the POH.

You didn’t say where in the world you are flying?

 

[mcgrathm]

Re: 112/B take off characteristics

I also have some experience of PA32s and they are a world apart on takeoff. Plus the extra 100 HP really gets them moving at a cost.

In all takeoff circumstances and on all surfaces I use 10 degrees of flap except very short field. Trim has to be at least half way between the takeoff marks and you need to get out of the piper and Cessna habit of flying everywhere four up with full tanks, unless two of them are children.
You will find it takes off by it’s self if it is trimmed correctly at around 73kts. You are looking for best rate of climb around 82kts but most of us cruise climb at whatever speed gets 400’-500’ per min around 90-100.
Initial climb at full throttle, gear away as soon as out of useable runway, flaps away when a good positive rate of climb is achieved and back to 25” 2500rpm and begin to lean back to around 11gph in the climb unless you are in a high density situation where you would start leaner as per the POH.

You didn’t say where in the world you are flying?

Very good description.

 

[jukelemon]

Re: 112/B take off characteristics

I also have some experience of PA32s and they are a world apart on takeoff. Plus the extra 100 HP really gets them moving at a cost.

In all takeoff circumstances and on all surfaces I use 10 degrees of flap except very short field. Trim has to be at least half way between the takeoff marks and you need to get out of the piper and Cessna habit of flying everywhere four up with full tanks, unless two of them are children.
You will find it takes off by it’s self if it is trimmed correctly at around 73kts. You are looking for best rate of climb around 82kts but most of us cruise climb at whatever speed gets 400’-500’ per min around 90-100.
Initial climb at full throttle, gear away as soon as out of useable runway, flaps away when a good positive rate of climb is achieved and back to 25” 2500rpm and begin to lean back to around 11gph in the climb unless you are in a high density situation where you would start leaner as per the POH.

You didn’t say where in the world you are flying?

I would add though... each of our Trim knobs seem to represent different things in reality i.e. my plane never sees any trim knob indication below the very first line/white indication on the Take Off section. If I put it anywhere past that than it would be way too much trim and nose up attitude. I end up landing land and taking off in that exact same place on the trim wheel.

Just calling it out that he would need to find the sweet spot on his plane and I would guess somewhere between my setting and your setting

 

[Tazman]

Re: 112/B take off characteristics

Agree with the other Commander owners/pilots.

Forget the Cessna. You won't fly a Commander like you flew them.

I moved from a 1973 172M to a Commander in addition to flying other planes.

The Commander is different and better.

My 1976 TC was off at 72 Knots. Then 85Knot climb speed at full power until 500' ABG while trimming and leaning when possible. Then increase speed to cruise and continuous climb at 400'-500' to predetermined Cruise ALT.

What a wonderful experience.

Have a happy in all flights.

 

[Guy Maher]

Re: 112/B take off characteristics

Reviewing this thread, I felt the need to emphasize a couple of points:

First, there is no need to reduce the power after take-off. I saw 25 square mentioned and yes, I know that the POH does suggest 26 square for a “Cruise climb.” But that is not a limitation. The manual also indicates full throttle and 2700 RPM when “Maximum climb rate” is desired. When I was with Rockwell Commander when they were building these planes, one thing I never forgot was the Lycoming reps telling us to climb the 112’s, TC’s, and 114’s hard, but climb them cool. My suggestion is to firewall it and leave it there until you level off for cruise. (In the TC, follow the maximum climb power schedule). If you feel like you HAVE TO reduce power, just dial back the RPM by 100 but leave the throttle full. You will lose 1” of MP per thousand feet of climb anyway, so it won’t be long before you hit 25” or 26”. The advantage is you’ll bet higher quicker, and you’ll be pushing more cooling fuel through the engine. It’s better on the engine to be running wide open - and even adding 5 knots if you want extra cooling air - than to be slugging up through the hot air with reduced fuel flow and lower climb rate.

Second, I can’t think of anytime I’d not take off with at least 10 degrees of flaps selected - except if they are inop and I was flying to a field to get them fixed.

So 10 to 20 degrees of flaps, stay on the runway until you reach a good positive rotation speed - do not rotate early - pitch to an attitude you know gives you the proper initial climb speed and hold it. Clean it up, and stay at full power to put some distance between you and the ground as quickly as possible.

Guy

 

[N1049j]

Re: 112/B take off characteristics

sounds like good advice! Logical also!

 

[jukelemon]

Re: 112/B take off characteristics

Reviewing this thread, I felt the need to emphasize a couple of points:

First, there is no need to reduce the power after take-off. I saw 25 square mentioned and yes, I know that the POH does suggest 26 square for a “Cruise climb.” But that is not a limitation. The manual also indicates full throttle and 2700 RPM when “Maximum climb rate” is desired. When I was with Rockwell Commander when they were building these planes, one thing I never forgot was the Lycoming reps telling us to climb the 112’s, TC’s, and 114’s hard, but climb them cool. My suggestion is to firewall it and leave it there until you level off for cruise. (In the TC, follow the maximum climb power schedule). If you feel like you HAVE TO reduce power, just dial back the RPM by 100 but leave the throttle full. You will lose 1” of MP per thousand feet of climb anyway, so it won’t be long before you hit 25” or 26”. The advantage is you’ll bet higher quicker, and you’ll be pushing more cooling fuel through the engine. It’s better on the engine to be running wide open - and even adding 5 knots if you want extra cooling air - than to be slugging up through the hot air with reduced fuel flow and lower climb rate.

Second, I can’t think of anytime I’d not take off with at least 10 degrees of flaps selected - except if they are inop and I was flying to a field to get them fixed.

So 10 to 20 degrees of flaps, stay on the runway until you reach a good positive rotation speed - do not rotate early - pitch to an attitude you know gives you the proper initial climb speed and hold it. Clean it up, and stay at full power to put some distance between you and the ground as quickly as possible.

Guy

Hi Guy.

Do you happen to know why the 112B's and TCs called for 0* flaps on takeoff in the POH but no one seems to recommend it years later?

 

[ksandrew]

Re: 112/B take off characteristics

Jason.

The B's and the TC have the longer wings, I ALWAYS used 10 degrees on SB and thought that was what the book called for.
We have all taken off and forgotten the flaps. you soon find out the difference. I also like the visual on 10 degrees by matching with the ailerons.

Life is a barrel of fun.

Ken Andrew

 

[jukelemon]

Re: 112/B take off characteristics

Jason.

The B's and the TC have the longer wings, I ALWAYS used 10 degrees on SB and thought that was what the book called for.
We have all taken off and forgotten the flaps. you soon find out the difference. I also like the visual on 10 degrees by matching with the ailerons.

Life is a barrel of fun.

Ken Andrew

Hi Ken.

The 112B calls for 0 not 10... but it seems most just forget the POH and always do 10*.

As a new pilot... I am trying to not just dismiss the POH But I also know sometimes manuals get it wrong.

 

[Commander91gm]

Re: 112/B take off characteristics

Hi Guy.

Do you happen to know why the 112B's and TCs called for 0* flaps on takeoff in the POH but no one seems to recommend it years later?

Guy has a lot of experience with the TC's, he was the previous owner of my plane!

 

[mcgrathm]

Re: 112/B take off characteristics

Hi Ken.

The 112B calls for 0 not 10... but it seems most just forget the POH and always do 10*.

As a new pilot... I am trying to not just dismiss the POH But I also know sometimes manuals get it wrong.

It's not that the POH is wrong, but you have options that are included in the POH. Given runway length, Density Altitude, Weight and Balance you set your flaps accordingly.

 

[jukelemon]

Re: 112/B take off characteristics

It's not that the POH is wrong, but you have options that are included in the POH. Given runway length, Density Altitude, Weight and Balance you set your flaps accordingly.

Hey Mike.

I get what you are saying and maybe it is the new pilot mode of thought.

I don't see anywhere where it states I have the option i.e. "normal" TO is stated to be at 0* but it seems "normal" to most is always 10*.

I am not trying to debate the issue really... just get an explanation as to why the Bs had it that way yet all owners seem to not follow it lol.

 

[mcgrathm]

Re: 112/B take off characteristics

Hey Mike.

I get what you are saying and maybe it is the new pilot mode of thought.

I don't see anywhere where it states I have the option i.e. "normal" TO is stated to be at 0* but it seems "normal" to most is always 10*.

I am not trying to debate the issue really... just get an explanation as to why the Bs had it that way yet all owners seem to not follow it lol.

I think it is normal to most is because most have the 10* in the POH. I figure as many pilots do to get a feel for their plane is to test some of the settings. They probably found that 10* gives them better take off performance so they stuck with it.

Each plane is different due to CG, weight, HP caused by component added removed, age and wear of the engine etc. So each one will perform different.

 

[jukelemon]

Re: 112/B take off characteristics

I think it is normal to most is because most have the 10* in the POH. I figure as many pilots do to get a feel for their plane is to test some of the settings. They probably found that 10* gives them better take off performance so they stuck with it.

Each plane is different due to CG, weight, HP caused by component added removed, age and wear of the engine etc. So each one will perform different.

I follow.

I will let it go

Hope you're well... got 40+ coming over for some BBQ tomorrow. Been cooking since 5a this morning

 

[JimParker256]

Re: 112/B take off characteristics

+1 to Guy's post.

The APS guys (Advanced Pilot Seminars) also talk about this. They strongly encourage climbing at max RPM and with wide open throttle, unless there are published noise abatement procedures that require otherwise. In addition to all the advantages Guy mentioned, they also point out that all the book takeoff and climb speeds are predicated on "max continuous power" (which is achieved with WOT and at max RPM for normally aspirated engines). The other major point they raise is maximizing rate of climb reduces the time spent in slower flight (climb speed), and increases the time spent at cruise speed, which taken together mean that you get to your destination sooner.

The APS guys also point out that there is NO time limitation for "max power" operation in any engine whose HP rating states it as "max continuous power." The word "continuous" is the key. Very few GA engines have a time-limit for "maximum power" and if they do, it will be clearly stated, along with their "max continuous power" rating. For example, the SportCruiser POH shows the Rotax 912-ULS having "Max Take-off Power" rated at 98.6 HP (5800 engine RPM for max. 5 min.), and 92.5 HP max continuous power.

(And yes, I realize that turbocharged and turbo-normalized engines will typically have manifold pressure limits – based on altitude – for takeoff operation. But it would still be somewhat unusual to find a TC or TN engine in a GA-type plane with a "time-limit" for maximum power.