The conversation

[N4843W]

Had a "tiff" at Leesburg, FL late last week that leads to a question. First, I was getting a little tired of the very attractive but not too helpful and sour counter girl -- just not pleasant., on multiple encounters. (Line guy was great, though.) Then after fueling up I pulled to the side and was going over the maps negotiating the very messy Orlando airspace with Disney and multiple MOA's trying to get from North of Orlando down to Ft. Lauderdale ... when the Ground Conroller accosted me (I was on ramp space not under his control) about doing my runup in front of the pumps. I was doing NO such thing, just idling, and told him, politely. He said, "well, we don't like you sitting under our tower." WTF? I was at least 300 feet away.

Then he gave me crap for taxing over to a taxiway entrance that had a water hose across it ... again, I was on uncontrolled ramp space ... "SIR! that taxiway is closed by NOTAM!" like a schoolmarm scholding me. I was not on a taxiway, just approaching an entrance. Well, Flight Service sure did not say anything about it that I heard. No big deal, I just turned and went to another entrance. He was quite pissy.

I had pulled up to the line ready to go and had just called towere when a 172 who had been in the pattern awhile, called "Turning base to 3 mile final." Tower then told me to hold for landing traffic. Another WTF? I did a dumb thing and said, "Am I being punished?" and then he really went off saying perhaps I just shouldn't come to small airports. I WANTED to say, "Perhaps i shouldn't come to a small airport with seemingly no traffic whatsoever that requires a tower with TWO controllers to get planes in and out!"

At that point I just said, "43W holding short, 31." Then some local yocal comes on and says "Leesburg Tower ... FANTASTIC JOB this morning." I just couldn't stop myself and replied "Did you guys get some sort of exemption from Southern Hospitality or what?" Some other voice comes on and says, "GOOD ONE!" Well, I had one supporter.

Anyway ... here is the question. Is there a "rule" for how much spacing a Tower Controller needs to allow between takeoffs. I have been sent out with slow planes on 2 mile file many, many times ... even less, on many occasions.

Curious if anyone knows.

 

[JBunn]

Re: The conversation

Scott,

You didn't say whether you were departing IFR or not, but ithe reason may have been just sequencing your departure with Orlando and had nothing to do with the incoming plane on final. If you were departing VFR, the controller was just an a$$. We all have bad days, maybe this was his....or yours as the case may be.

 

[todd92]

Re: The conversation

I've had a couple of encounters with grouchy controllers. No point in talking back, I just move on and forget about it. He made you wait because he could. Let it go.

 

[Plummit]

Re: The conversation

We have a controller named "Todd" down here at KLGB who has irked just about everyone at one time or another. The irony is, everything the guy does is by-the-book! If you come back with anything other than your full call sign, he will tell you to give your whole N-number. If he has 3 planes in the pattern when you call in he might tell you to remain outside the Class Delta area and stand by....

In busy times, I just slow it way down and repeat every instruction is s-l-o-w motion. Other than that there's not a whole lot you can do.

I always say that if that's the worse thing that happens this week then I'm doing good!

regards

~Marc

 

[wab003]

Re: The conversation

Lots of trainees in the system (and my personal experience is that the newbies are generally much more impressed w/ their personal skill set/authority than are the folks used to pushing tin.) Perhaps that skill set is the reason the Leesburg controller is there as opposed to working a hub tracon.

Happens around the country. For example, generally the folks in Dayton Class C are accommodating and midwest-helpful except for this femme fatale that appeared on the radio a couple of years back. Anything more than two aircraft in her sector and she was saturated. I expect uneven service is one of the side effects of the "new FAA". I make certain when an ATC type provides first class service, I let them know OTA that they are appreciated. It also doesn't hurt when you detect a newbie, to try to catch the flick early on and if they are in over their heads (think transmission interjections by the supe sitting w/ them), become a bit more proactive to help them along. (i.e. - they put you on a vector for traffic or to clear arr/dep path and you see an intersection ahead that will keep you on the vector and still allow you to get back on track, offer a direct to XXXXX to save them from having to monitor your progress and call more turns. While not always accepted, many times you can hear the relief in their voices.) It's little stuff but makes a difference and makes for a better all round interaction. Of course, the NE and So Cal folks operate in a different "ozone" and customary midwest civility counts for little... ;-)

 

[Jeffrey Boccaccio]

Re: The conversation

Hey Scott:

You were in Leesberg??????

Come on, you where so close.

Just went on by again huh?

Jeff

 

[atjudge]

Re: The conversation

Funny Scott, but I've never had a problem with Controllers when I'm in a big Airplane, (Well once last year at ATL), but I've gotten scolded by a Woman in my Home Airport several times. I get the distinct impression that the Controllers who manage the light aircraft believe we have no idea what we're doing and treat us as such.....Remember....Goosefraaabaaa...

 

[wab003]

Re: The conversation

Except for Jim we rather ducked your question didn't we? Yes and no. Depends upon several factors (including ATC cooperativeness and experience) If diverse departures are in effect, min separation gets reduced. VFR/IFR and existing wx can obviously impact the separation reqmnt's.

I suspect Jim's observation is probably the answer. In certain high traffic areas w/in Bravo umbrellas, getting a release from the Big Momma may be the controlling factor. The local controller may punch you up as coming out but until they receive the Bring-it-on from the Tracon, you have to stay put. Haven't you seen some of that at Willow from Metro's controllers? Maybe from the days when Detroit actuallly had some busy traffic periods... ;-)

 

[N4843W]

Re: The conversation

scott,

you didn't say whether you were departing ifr or not, but ithe reason may have been just sequencing your departure with orlando and had nothing to do with the incoming plane on final. If you were departing vfr, the controller was just an a$$. We all have bad days, maybe this was his....or yours as the case may be.

Severe clear VFR it was. And it is outside the Orlando Bravo. Hey ... I fly out of KYIP Willow Run under the DTW Bravo ... VERY used to that ... also used to "4843W cleared Runway 23 Departure no delay Lear on 2 mile final!" But a single 172 in the pattern and me were evidently too much for these guys.

 

[ksandrew]

Re: The conversation

If I get pi$$ed off with them I keep requesting altimeter setting in millibars, It shuts them us for a while while they figure it out.

Life is a barrel of fun.

Ken

 

[CFCS]

Re: The conversation

Scott you are so miss informed, that is the guy that got sent there from screwing up here. Several of us threatened the regional director and soon he was headed out of town.
There were actually two at the time the other got sent to Cut Bank Montana.
Five years later I needed to cross the border and he hadn't forgotten me. He said he really enjoys the 10 months of winter in Cut Bank spent several hours with him, had to rent a car because my 1999 aircraft didn't have a radio license.

 

[Lawrence Rippon]

Re: The conversation

Scott,

Go on give ‘em, hell. Try this one, "Tower, can you see your life from up there".

Allen has a point, unfortunately some pilots live up to the view the controllers have of them. This Sunday I heard the following:

Farnborough Radar, G-XXXX.
G-XX Pass your message.
G-XX is a C152 ????? to ????? 2000' 1026 5 miles south of......F*****g H£ll where the F*** are we..... South of Farnham.
G-XX Squawk 0433, not familiar with that location.

 

[Airotto370]

Re: The conversation

Scott-boy,

Sounds like you just lucked out. I am not aware of a minimum separation for departures and have gotten dozens of "10J cleared for takeoff, Pilatus on 1 mile final, no delay".

Also had a fair share of buttheads like that guy, but not sure if cracking wise will ever help. If they were smart enough to understand sarcasm, they'd be smart enough not to evoke it in the first place.

"don't like you sitting under our tower" is a new one though.

 

[Lonnie Steverson]

Re: The conversation

Scott maybe its your hair! you may need a hair cut to keep from looking like a mad man!!!! LOL You probably just got a person barley trying to make ends meet stuck in that tower wishing he was in a commander flying all over the place like you. However he doesn't know the real story either. I think there is a song HAD A BAD DAY.

 

[N4843W]

Re: The conversation

thanks for the moral support ... it is absolutely true that it never helps to crack back at them ... sometimes it is just too difficult to hold back.

I have another controller story from yesterday that is 180 degree the opposite, in fact, Tim from Orlando approach probably saved at least two lives. I am still running that one through my head (Bill B will relate) and will write it up when I can get a little more distance from it.

Flying from Atlanta up most of the Applachian chain to Lancaster PA this afternoon. Should be a decent day to fly. (Dave! I would stop in if I could be have a dinner thise eve, big presentatioon in the AM and then off to Buffalo for another meeting, then finally home. 5 clients in 10 days -- only with GA. Business is looking up.)

 

[Commander7GT]

Re: The conversation

Lonnie Steverson: Scott maybe its your hair! you may need a hair cut

Never cut the hair! I used to stand out in the forefront know I blend into the woodwork.... Sampson is written about for a reason!
NEVER CUT THE HAIR!

 

[Lonnie Steverson]

Re: The conversation

Just kidding with Scott.

 

[Frank]

Re: The conversation

I have never used the following but it is something that once I get really frustrated with a controller I might use. This was given to me by a friend.

Am I up here because you are down there? Or, are you down there because I am up here?

If things are gonna get snippy is seems to come from female controllers more than males. If further seems to me when the situation is getting out of hand silence is the best solution and to fight the battles once landed. Having said that it is extemely hard not to reply and I have replied just like Scott did. But when someone is in your face it does become difficult.

Such encounters can become a distraction and I do not think it is in the best interests of anyone if that happens.

Frank

 

[Commander7GT]

Re: The conversation

I know you were Lonnie, I just saw alot of oppertunities slip because I changed to a more common appearance. I'm in alot of meetings with some big players in the construction trades and my air time in those meetings stood out. "Lets see what the hippie kid knows"
7 times out of 10 I walked away with a contract. Might be silly but there was something to it. I still have the same confidence and display a very knowledgable presentation, just less presence I guess. I was just funnin on the comment

 

[nruzic]

Re: The conversation

I have never used the following but it is something that once I get really frustrated with a controller I might use. This was given to me by a friend.

Am I up here because you are down there? Or, are you down there because I am up here?

If things are gonna get snippy is seems to come from female controllers more than males. If further seems to me when the situation is getting out of hand silence is the best solution and to fight the battles once landed.

Such encounters can become a distraction and I do not think it is in the best interests of anyone if that happens.

Frank

Good thoughtful response Frank - good advice on the silent response that has the benefit of not distracting us from the task of flying safely. Just 1 observation - In my experience there's no female predominance in the irate controller syndrome - most of what I've heard over the years comes from males sure there's the female to male controllers ratio that has to be accounted for.

Happy flying