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Lop

neald

Active member
Supporting Member
Davis, CA
Aircraft Year
1975
Aircraft Type
112/A
Reg Number
N1286J
Serial Number
286
Hi,

My apologies in advance for stirring the pot.. but I am curious, so I thought I would ask the group:

Has anyone ever successfully run LOP on the 112 HotShot?

I have every confidence that it could be done easily on the 114 HotShot -- but without a MAP controller, I have been unable to make it happen on my 112HS.

Regards,
Neal
 
Re: Lop

Neal.

I have been wondering the same thing myself for a number of years. Talked to Robin about it and he advised me not to try.

The details about running LOP are interesting and informative.

I will let you try it first and then tell me how it went with your numbers.

Life is a barrel of fun.

ken
 
Re: Lop

Neal, I'm curious as to why you believe LOP would be easier on a 114 Hotshot vs a 112 Hotshot.
 
Re: Lop

Neal,

Just a general impression I had from some comments I had heard from a Lycoming Rep & friends was that LOP does not seem to work as well on Lycomings as the Continentals and in particular it did not seem to do much for the "Lyc four bangers". Some folks (Lycoming users) had sent their GAMI injectors back after they didn't seem to achieve any of the benefits of LOP.

This was not science and I have no data to support what was said. On the other hand I have a hangar friend who flies a "Cessna 300" (read Columbia) behind a Continental 550 and consistently flies LOP and has nothing but good things to say about LOP...

As they say; go figure

Regards - Clark
 
Re: Lop

I think Clark is correct. In general, fuel-injected engines have better odds of running well LOP, due to the more balanced flow to the cylinders, especially if GAMI injectors are used to really get the fuel flows balanced.

Carbureted engines are notorious for uneven flow from the carb to the cylinders. A few people manage to operate LOP with their carbureted Lycomimgs, but it is a low percentage.
 
Re: Lop

Neal, I'm curious as to why you believe LOP would be easier on a 114 Hotshot vs a 112 Hotshot.
Joe,

Without a MAP controller, the power will fall off (MP will lower) when the engine is leaned past peak. You can then try to recover the power, but it causes the engine to need to be releaned. The cycle is endless. Or at least it as as best I understand.

I was wondering if Scott or any other LOP afficiando had an alternate technique available.. preferably one that has been successfully run on a 112HS.

Regards,
Neal
 
Re: Lop

Maybe start off 5% higher power than you want to cruise at then lean? Now you've lost the MP to get down to the cruising MP you wanted
 
Re: Lop

Maybe start off 5% higher power than you want to cruise at then lean? Now you've lost the MP to get down to the cruising MP you wanted
5% too high and I cannot lean (75% max, and that could put me at 80%).

Of course, the Mooney guys with the same Rajay setup we have say they can do this by just dialing in more wastegate on the vernier. Then again, they claim to go 300MPH on .5/GPH. :)

Regards,
Neal
 
Re: Lop

5% too high and I cannot lean (75% max, and that could put me at 80%).

Of course, the Mooney guys with the same Rajay setup we have say they can do this by just dialing in more wastegate on the vernier. Then again, they claim to go 300MPH on .5/GPH. :)

Regards,
Neal

With four 6' 10" guys sitting in comfort.
 
Re: Lop

Neal.

would you explain what a MAP controller is, sorry to be so dumb but never knew that I did not have one, or needed one.

I am willing to try flying LOP with the 112 hotshot but would like an experienced Hotshot pilot in the right seat monitoring the engine temperatures.

I find it hard to fly, avoid traffic, and play with the engine at the same time.

The next fly in would be a good time to experiment.

Life is a barrel of fun.

Ken
 
Re: Lop

would you explain what a MAP controller is, sorry to be so dumb but never knew that I did not have one, or needed one.

First, for reference, here is a picture of one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Garrett-Tur...iation_Parts_Gear&hash=item20dd14cf87&vxp=mtr

Basically the controller regulates manifold pressure to hold to a particular setting. For example, if we had one in the 112HS, we might set the throttle to 26" for climb, and the MAP controller would keep it there up til the critical altitude (at which point it would begin to fall off at a rate of about 1"/1k feet... but the critical altitude in the 112HS is somewhere north of 20k ft, which is way higher than we are certified, so it would be a non-issue.. though I digress).


I am willing to try flying LOP with the 112 hotshot but would like an experienced Hotshot pilot in the right seat monitoring the engine temperatures.

I find it hard to fly, avoid traffic, and play with the engine at the same time.

The next fly in would be a good time to experiment.

Life is a barrel of fun.

Ken

I agree. I have tried to have a go of it once or twice in the past, but it never worked out as I wanted it to. So I set it back to 12GPH and moved on to the next distraction,

Regards,
Neal
 
Re: Lop

I fly LOP behind one of those large turbocharged Continental engines in a different airplane (used to have a couple of Commanders). I cruise LOP all the time, but I had the benefit of others knowing roughly the settings to use as a starting point, a MAP controller, fuel injectors, and full instrumentation. My plane has GAMI injectors and runs smoothly down to over 100 degrees LOP.

If I were to try it on an engine without any idea of the LOP flows, I would first get to an altitude such as 10,000' and set the power to 60-65% ROP at normal-to-high cruise RPM. I'd let the speed settle in and note the IAS.

Since the APS folks say you can't hurt an engine with the mixture knob if you're <= 65% power, I'd lean the mixture to peak reasonably quickly, note the peak TIT, and keep going to the lean side. Assuming the engine continues to run acceptably past peak, you will see the TIT come back down from peak as you lean and the CHTs will start dropping, too. You want the CHTs below 380 degrees.

Once you're on the lean side, if you're turbo you can give an inch or so more MAP and the TIT and CHTs will decrease at the same fuel flow -- you can use this to drop TIT and CHT if needed and/or it lets you feed more fuel for more power and stay LOP. After all this tweaking if you achieve the same IAS as above, then you know you're operating at 60-65% LOP. Record the RPM, MAP, and fuel flow and you should be able to get to these LOP settings much quicker next time. I wouldn't go above 60% power if I didn't know I have balanced fuel flows and/or don't have all cylinder CHT monitoring.

If you're carbureted and not fuel injected, i understand that adding some amount of carb heat can sometimes help the engine run more smoothly LOP. I've never tried this. I'd also be careful with a turbo and no MAP controller because altitude changes might change your mixture.

The GAMI site has a "GAMI lean test" procedure you can use to see how balanced your fuel delivery system is. The APS folks at www.advancedpilot.com have a good online course for LOP operations.

I will confess to having gone through 4 cylinders on my Continental engine in 800 hours. "The net" says these engines consume cylinders no matter how one runs them....and I'm inclined to believe it. However, I've always run this engine LOP and obviously don't know what the results would have been had I always run ROP. I will say the engine temperatures are considerably lower LOP and the oil, plugs, cylinders, valves all stay quite clean. It's a thirsty engine; my fuel flows are around 3GPH lower LOP in cruise.
 
Re: Lop

I will confess to having gone through 4 cylinders on my Continental engine in 800 hours. "The net" says these engines consume cylinders no matter how one runs them....and I'm inclined to believe it. However, I've always run this engine LOP and obviously don't know what the results would have been had I always run ROP. I will say the engine temperatures are considerably lower LOP and the oil, plugs, cylinders, valves all stay quite clean. It's a thirsty engine; my fuel flows are around 3GPH lower LOP in cruise.

PA46 by any chance?
 
Re: Lop

I fly LOP behind one of those large turbocharged Continental engines in a different airplane (used to have a couple of Commanders). I cruise LOP all the time, but I had the benefit of others knowing roughly the settings to use as a starting point, a MAP controller, fuel injectors, and full instrumentation. My plane has GAMI injectors and runs smoothly down to over 100 degrees LOP.

If I were to try it on an engine without any idea of the LOP flows, I would first get to an altitude such as 10,000' and set the power to 60-65% ROP at normal-to-high cruise RPM. I'd let the speed settle in and note the IAS.

Since the APS folks say you can't hurt an engine with the mixture knob if you're <= 65% power, I'd lean the mixture to peak reasonably quickly, note the peak TIT, and keep going to the lean side. Assuming the engine continues to run acceptably past peak, you will see the TIT come back down from peak as you lean and the CHTs will start dropping, too. You want the CHTs below 380 degrees.

Once you're on the lean side, if you're turbo you can give an inch or so more MAP and the TIT and CHTs will decrease at the same fuel flow -- you can use this to drop TIT and CHT if needed and/or it lets you feed more fuel for more power and stay LOP. After all this tweaking if you achieve the same IAS as above, then you know you're operating at 60-65% LOP. Record the RPM, MAP, and fuel flow and you should be able to get to these LOP settings much quicker next time. I wouldn't go above 60% power if I didn't know I have balanced fuel flows and/or don't have all cylinder CHT monitoring.

If you're carbureted and not fuel injected, i understand that adding some amount of carb heat can sometimes help the engine run more smoothly LOP. I've never tried this. I'd also be careful with a turbo and no MAP controller because altitude changes might change your mixture.

The GAMI site has a "GAMI lean test" procedure you can use to see how balanced your fuel delivery system is. The APS folks at www.advancedpilot.com have a good online course for LOP operations.

I will confess to having gone through 4 cylinders on my Continental engine in 800 hours. "The net" says these engines consume cylinders no matter how one runs them....and I'm inclined to believe it. However, I've always run this engine LOP and obviously don't know what the results would have been had I always run ROP. I will say the engine temperatures are considerably lower LOP and the oil, plugs, cylinders, valves all stay quite clean. It's a thirsty engine; my fuel flows are around 3GPH lower LOP in cruise.

Very interesting. Thanks for posting the Advanced Pilot Seminars website. We are gong to start a new thread requesting contributions to send Paul to the course! Or just paypal me your tax-deductible donation to scott@LOPYES.com
 
Re: Lop

Scott

Thanks and donations are appreciated and how much does the course cost, not sure I am real interested in LOP after reading Isaache statement below;


"I will confess to having gone through 4 cylinders on my Continental engine in 800 hours. "The net" says these engines consume cylinders no matter how one runs them....and I'm inclined to believe it. However, I've always run this engine LOP and obviously don't know what the results would have been had I always run ROP. I will say the engine temperatures are considerably lower LOP and the oil, plugs, cylinders, valves all stay quite clean. It's a thirsty engine; my fuel flows are around 3GPH lower LOP in cruise"

I don't know Scott after eating four cylinders in 800 hours if I want to try the LOP, kind of would turn on a enunciator light on in my brain that I might be doing something wrong to my engine don't you think?
 
Re: Lop

Continental endorses running my TSIO-550E lean of peak per Conti's own engine operations manual, so I don't have any reason to think LOP (done right) has anything to do with cylinder consumption. In fact, I know of other folks who run this engine ROP and have the exact same cylinder issues. I surely was nervous the first time I tried it....goes against everything I thought I knew about leaning! Now I'm nervous running continuous ROP in cruise....the engine just runs so much cooler LOP.

For example, 65% ROP yields cylinder head temps on the order of 390-400F. LOP they are 320-350F, I give up about 2% IAS, get back $18/hr in fuel cost, and achieve increased range. TITs are about the same ROP or LOP.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not an LOP evangelist. Just relating my experience, and it might be worth a try if you're inclined.
 
Lop

Scott

Thanks and donations are appreciated and how much does the course cost, not sure I am real interested in LOP after reading Isaache statement below;


"I will confess to having gone through 4 cylinders on my Continental engine in 800 hours. "The net" says these engines consume cylinders no matter how one runs them....and I'm inclined to believe it. However, I've always run this engine LOP and obviously don't know what the results would have been had I always run ROP. I will say the engine temperatures are considerably lower LOP and the oil, plugs, cylinders, valves all stay quite clean. It's a thirsty engine; my fuel flows are around 3GPH lower LOP in cruise"

I don't know Scott after eating four cylinders in 800 hours if I want to try the LOP, kind of would turn on a enunciator light on in my brain that I might be doing something wrong to my engine don't you think?


I ran my last engine (IO-360) LOP for 2300 hours with same jugs and they were all in pristine condition w/ comps 76 or better at ovhl. Typical cruise CHTs were all in the 300-325 range. Cool and clean. Exhaust valves were all perfect pizzas. Just sayin...

You should run your engine however you want to and feel good about it. Your checkbook - your choice.
 
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Re: Lop

What's in your wallet? LOP or ROP ?
 
Re: Lop

Scott

Thanks and donations are appreciated and how much does the course cost, not sure I am real interested in LOP after reading Isaache statement below;


"I will confess to having gone through 4 cylinders on my Continental engine in 800 hours. "The net" says these engines consume cylinders no matter how one runs them....and I'm inclined to believe it. However, I've always run this engine LOP and obviously don't know what the results would have been had I always run ROP. I will say the engine temperatures are considerably lower LOP and the oil, plugs, cylinders, valves all stay quite clean. It's a thirsty engine; my fuel flows are around 3GPH lower LOP in cruise"

I don't know Scott after eating four cylinders in 800 hours if I want to try the LOP, kind of would turn on a enunciator light on in my brain that I might be doing something wrong to my engine don't you think?

There is no way in God's Blue Sky that losing a cylinder every 200 hours (x4) is due to LOP operation. Paul, you reminded me of my Grandpa who always put tubes in his tubeless tires and smoked straight Camels cuz there was something in those damn filters that will give you cancer !!!!
 
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