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Hello from Michigan

Dennis

Dennis

New member
Romeo, MI
Not a new member but recently renewed my membership and wanted to reintroduce myself.
I’m a relatively new pilot with around 150 hours looking to buy my first plane. I have narrowed it down to a handful that fit my mission and budget of 60-70k. I know this is the Commanders (bias expected) owner group but would like any comments from your years of experience.
  1. Piper Arrow (Arrow II or newer or 200hp Arrow I)
  2. Beech Sierra
  3. 112 Commander
I have researched the specs and learned many of the pros and cons of each but since I’ve never flown in any of them I am looking for perspective from people who have time in two or three of them.

Thanks, Dennis
 
Hello Dennis,

I did all my IFR training in an Arrow and with the same motor as the 112 and being a retract, performance was pretty similar. But with only a single door (and pretty cramped - I'm 6'3") I crossed it off my possibility list when I was shopping. I personally don't think a single door aircraft is safe or practical (try having your wife wait out in the rain while you pre-flight). The Sierra does at least get you the second door and I flew one and while it was OK, I didn't find much particularly special about it other than the jump seat setup which would let you shoehorn 6 people in - nothing I needed, however. Sierra full fuel useful load (60g) is also a bit better than the 112 if I recall correctly. The donut landing gear is pretty stiff. Ultimately, the pricing of Beechcraft parts and service steered me away from that choice.

I've had my Commander 112 around 20 years now and no regrets at all. Comfortable, very stable for IFR, systems and basic engineering are well thought out and designed, and service is straightforward once you get past the learning curve for a couple of the unique systems like the gear. I fly alone almost all the time so the useful load isn't an issue for me. And being on the East Coast the warm-weather performance also isn't a concern - that would be about the same on all these models. I think you'd find insurance costs also about the same on all three.

There are quite a few advantages I see with the Commander.
  • Lycoming IO-360 (variant used in all three of these aircraft) is very, very reliable
  • Trailing link landing gear with hydraulic struts is a superior setup. Retractable mechanism is straightforward and the emergency gear deployment is a gravity based operation (with spring assist) which is well designed and reliable.
  • Horizontal stabilizer positioning means very little trimming required throughout a flight
  • Good visibility for the pilot and especially the passengers
  • Commanders have very comfortable, large cabins. I'm 6'3" and I don't bump elbows with the passenger.
  • There's a large panel so avionics work and upgrades are straightforward.
  • 68 gallon fuel capacity is nice especially compared to the Arrow which usually has 50g
  • Commanders hold their value well if taken care of
You need to do some flying in all three to really get a sense of the differences. Hopefully someone from your area will chip in here with an offer for a flight - warm weather is theoretically coming sometime soon :)
 
Dennis,

I also responded on the Beech Aero Club post

I flew an Archer for almost three years when I started flying. I never liked performing the piper roll to get in or out. The plane flew great, and it was a fun travel machine. We decided that it was time to purchase our own plane.

We joined BAC and purchased our first plane, a 1980 Sundowner. I flew the Sundowner for nine years, loved that plane, we still miss her. Just like the Beech Aero Club Please do not hesitate to ask questions here. The Commander group has plenty of knowledge and experience to share.

Why did we sell the Sundowner? We simply wanted more speed for the long cross countries. We took our Sundowner everywhere, back and forth to Texas, out to South Dakota, and up and down the entire east coast. Our plane was an easy keeper (horse term) , fixed gear, in excellent shape when we bought her, and I kept true to preventative maintenance to stay ahead by replacing or updating items every year.

My bride and I looked at Sierra's, a Cirrus or two, and Commanders to fill that need for speed. The natural step was to the Sierra, two doors, big baggage door, good speed. The few things that swayed us was the seating and gear (gear info noted above in Glenn's reply). We both wanted to get away from the sitting low to the floor with legs out front and wanted more of an SUV type seating and the commander provided that seating, it's also wider in the cabin. I also felt the commander gear was a better build, and no donuts to replace. I happened to find our commander at the right price with all the panel goodies on my wish list, and the aircraft needed nothing. So that's the direction we went in. We love our Commander; two doors, roomy cabin, good speed, and very good club support.

Good luck on your search!
 
Gary and I took the same path - Sundowner to Commander. The Sundowner is the fixed gear version of the Sierra. The Commander is a much more refined and comfortable airplane than either the Arrow or the Sierra. It's big. It has an Lycoming IO-360 (which the Sierra does too). I think that the Lycoming IO or O-360 is probably the most "bullet proof" aircraft engine ever built.

The main difference between them in my mind:

Commander / Arrow - Commander has two doors and is much roomier.
Commander / Sierra - Commander is slightly roomier and much more comfortable - better seats (you will find out why when you take one out).

All are good airplanes.
 
Dennis, glad you've decided to jump in with a discussion. I have no time in a Sierra so can't speak to that one. My journey started in a Cessna 150 in 1977. Through my PPL I spent most of my time in the 150, a 'then-new" 152, and the 172. My introduction to complex was a T-tail Arrow the FBO had. I salivated over flying that for the longest time! Getting the checkout & some cross-country time in the Arrow was grand (remember what I had to compare it with!). When I decided it was time to buy a plane for myself I was determined I wanted speed most of all and intended to go with a Mooney - that was until I sat in one! My search led me to Commanders. I knew someone who had a 112 many years ago; never flew in it but remember some discussions about the plane. I did tons of research & spoke at length with Judi Anderson. All of the points others have made are spot on. I'm not as tall as Glenn (5'8" versus his 6'3"), but I can say I'm more than comfy. My longest venture was from Albuquerque to New Jersey and back in three days. I would not have been near as comfortable in an Arrow doing the same thing. Am I biased? - Of course you already know the answer! I really enjoy my 112 Hot Shot - the turbo is essential with home base at 5,387 MSL. Hopefully you can connect with someone not far from you for an "intro flight." Be forewarned, tho - you'll most likely be sold!

Best of luck.
 
Dennis, welcome back!!

I used to own a warrior for a few years and it was a great airplane, I flew the arrow and Archer as well, but it comes time that the comfort and little extra performance is needed. I bought N1102J in 2019 and I love it!!! best single engine airplane out there.

If you're going with with a complex airplane (which we all know, it's a more expensive beast) ... I would recommend the commander.

Good luck.

Marcos.
 
Thanks to all for the feedback.
The Commander is probably first on my list with the challenge being finding a decent one in my price range. Anyone looking to sell let me know.

Thanks
 
I'll tell you how I chose a Commander....and I don't really recommend using this process.

I had been flying a Beech Sundowner - low wing with a pilot side door of course. In previous years, I had owned and flown a number of Piper Cherokee models. Once I bought and flew that Sundowner, I was sold on a pilot side door. I vowed never again to own an airplane that I had to crawl over a seat to get into the left seat.

Anyway, after much research and on-line searching, I found a great 114B up in Islip NY (Long Island). Keep in mind that I had never even flown in a Commander and I am not even sure if I had ever seen one in person. I probably had over the years, but I certainly never got close to one.

Well, I got on this forum and found out about Judi Anderson. With her help, I bought the 1995 Commander 114B up in Islip. I made the deal and caught a Southwest Airlines flight up to Islip one night and spent the night. The next morning I met my plane, took care of a few loose ends, filed a flight plan, and took off from Islip. After 5 minutes in the air I knew that I had made a great decision - I loved the airplane.

I have bought a few cars on eBay sight unseen, but never a low six figure airplane and certainly never having not even have flown in type. I do NOT recommend doing it this way because it obviously could have turned out very badly for me and I am NOT filthy rich so this was real money to me.

I guess my point is that these are great airplanes and if you get Judi to help you in your search and purchase, it most likely will turn out great for you.
 
Hi Dennis
Welcome "back"
I am new to the Commander community as well (June 2020)
One of the eye opening items I ran across in the buying process was obtaining Insurance coverage.
Judi can also send you some options there as well.
If you have prior retract /HP/ Complex experience it will help as well as an instrument rating.

If you end up with a Commander you will not regret your decision!
 
Dennis,
I'm just south of Chicago but have no qualms about flying to Michigan if you'd like to take a ride in a 112. PM me if you'd like.
 
Dennis, I base at Detroit Willow Run and would me more than happy to take you up. I am coming up on 20 years of ownership next month, with 3500+ hours. Would probably have 4,000 hours in her by now if not for that kidney failure and transplant thing (18 years ago, so don't worry, I will not conk out on you,) and COVID. I use the plane for business all the time and with COVID, only 35 hours last year. But picking up nicely again. Anyway, the caveat is that mine is a 114. But you'll sure get a good idea of what it is like to fly the bird. I was close to trading up for an Aerostar before the big housing crash 12 years ago, but that wiped out that idea and I am now grateful for that. The Aerostar is a fast, beautiful airplane, but it would have eaten me alive in mtce. The Commander is very dependable, super comfortable, lots of baggage room, plenty of fuel, super stable for IFR if you plan to get that ticket as (almost) everyone should. I also have a great mechanic who knows the Commander inside and out, loves the planes and is very reasonable, in case you don't have one up in Romeo. Please feel free to email me to scott@truen.com and put "Romeo Pilot" in the subject line and we'll go fly, if you are OK with the 114. I am trying to think who close by has a 112. There are quite a few 114's and I am sure there must be 112's. Judi might now. Oh, I know there is one at Grosse Isle. My mechanic has helped him. I'll connect you with him if that helps.
 
Oh, an no one has mentioned, The Commander sitting next to a Sierra or Arrow on the ramp? As 100 people which is the best looking? 98 will pick the Commander. The other two are blind. You will get compliments on a Commander wherever you fly.
 
Dennis,

I owned a half share in a Sierra, great plane and it did well for me, Beechcraft parts were so expensive because they had a factory, We could not go to the manufacturer and buy a part, It had to come via Beechcraft who quadrupled the price.

The best part about a Commander is the Owner Group. That 75.00 per year is the best investment you will ever make. Just a wealth of information out there and always more than willing to help. Be sure to analyze your mission statement, do you need a 112 or a 114, it is less expensive to maintain four horses over six, and in my case 98 percent of the time I am flying alone or just two of us. I am turbo-normalized (hotshot) which is a great advantage.

And as others will say, be sure to talk to Judy Anderson who will guide you in the right direction.

Life is a barrel of fun.

Ken
 
N4843W said:
Oh, an no one has mentioned, The Commander sitting next to a Sierra or Arrow on the ramp? As 100 people which is the best looking? 98 will pick the Commander. The other two are blind. You will get compliments on a Commander wherever you fly.
Click to expand...

I agree, in ramp appeal the Commander wins easily.
And thanks for the offer, I'll send you an email.

Dennis
 
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